Evolving and Growing with Grief: A Grief Awareness Week Roundtable with 3 Grief-focused Podcasters

What happens when three grief podcasters sit down to talk about the happiest–saddest time of the year?

In this special Grief Awareness Week episode, three grief storytellers and space-holders — Nina Rodriguez (Grief and Light), Liz Quinn (Healing Hearts Podcast), and Tara Accardo (Life with Grief podcast) — come together for a conversation that’s equal parts honest, tender, and deeply human.

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The video version is available here.

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What unfolds is a spacious, story-rich dialogue about the many faces of grief: the way it evolves over time, the way it reshapes who we are, and the way the holidays often magnify both the ache and the sweetness. Together, the three share how their losses — Nina’s 32-year-old brother, Liz’s newborn daughter and both parents, and Tara’s parents and beloved 19-year-old dog — continue to ripple through their lives in ways that are both painful and illuminating.

They explore the early fog of grief, the physicality of sorrow, the rituals and traditions that tether us to our people, and the power of setting boundaries when the world expects more than we can give. They reflect on identity, envy, unexpected joy, and the healing that happens when we speak our stories out loud and are met with understanding instead of silence.

This episode feels like sitting with friends who get it. Three women navigating grief personally and professionally, carving out space for truth, connection, and the radical permission to feel it all.

It will air on all three podcasts.

Key Takeaways

• Grief evolves constantly, shifting shape over time but never disappearing.
• Storytelling creates connection, offering validation, healing, and community.
• The first year of loss is disorienting, full of numbness and overwhelm.
• Rituals and traditions can honor loved ones, especially during the holidays.
• Clear boundaries are essential — it’s okay to opt out, slow down, or protect your energy.
• Grief impacts the body, not just the heart and mind.
• Community support softens the edges, reminding us we’re not alone.
• Every grief journey is unique, and there’s no one “right” way to move through it.
• Joy can coexist with grief, even when it feels fragile or unexpected.
• All emotions are valid, especially during tender seasons like the holidays.

The Grief and Light podcast is hosted by: Nina Rodriguez

• Creator of Grief and Light, Grief Guide
• griefandlight.com
• @griefandlight
• Resting Grief Face on Substack

Grief Support Resources for the Road:

• Grief Tending Toolkit
• Access our online community

Transcript

was this one scene where a mother lost her son and she's talking about her grief and she's explaining that grief is all-consuming in the beginning. Over the years, it's this thing that you're carrying with you all the time. It's ever-present, but it's not overwhelming. Then she said, there will come a time when you will want to feel it and reconnect with it again. I remember that was the first glimmer of hope.

that I felt in those early days. You just lost your loved one. Now what? Welcome to the Grief in Life podcast, where we explore this new reality through grief-colored lenses. Openly, authentically, I'm your host, Nina Rodriguez. Let's get started. Hello, and welcome to this special collaborative episode in honor of Grief Week, the first week of December when we collectively say, yes, grief exists.

Yes, it's complicated and no, we're not pretending otherwise. I'm Nina Rodriguez, host of Grief in Light and today I'm joined by two brilliant, big-hearted women who are doing meaningful work in the grief world. Liz Quinn of the Healing Hearts podcast and Tara Ocardo of Life with Grief. Between the three of us, we hold a world of loss. I lost my brother, Liz lost her newborn daughter and both of her parents.

Tara lost her parents and a 19 year old dog. Yes, pet loss grief is real and we honor that as well. And on top of our personal stories, Tara and I also show up as grief guides. So you're getting the lived experience and professional lens. In this conversation, we're diving into what it actually feels like to navigate grief during the holidays. And our hope is that you feel seen, understood and reminded that you get to do this season in whatever way makes sense.

to you, even if that means skipping the holiday cheer and choosing peace instead. So let's get into it.

Liz and Nina, welcome. I'm so excited to have this conversation, you guys. For those who are not familiar, this beautiful collaboration is really in honor of Grief Awareness Week, the week that this episode is launching. And we three came together and really just wanted to have a very open, very honest conversation about the realities of grief and making everyone just more aware of that, of course. And

just how that looks and feels and evolves over time. Ultimately to raise awareness around that, just normalize some of these things a little bit. yeah, again, just kind of normalize what we can or can't sometimes expect in this experience. And I think what's special about all of us is we've been through some similar losses, some very different losses, but what I think the three of us have

bonded over a lot over the time that we've known each other is, you know, even if we have gone through different losses on paper, so to speak, or even if it's the same, there's, even if we might experience it in our own different unique ways, there are so many similarities that bond us. And that's the very twisted gift, I think, that grief and going through things like this can.

give us sometimes, but before we really dig in, I definitely want to give a quick shout out to our dear friend and the creator of the Get Griefy Magazine and the Get Griefy Collective, Kira Sanchez. This is a collective that the three of us are a part of and it brings together a lot of people who do work in this grief space. So we all happen to be podcasters, but there's, know, some of us coach as well and there's authors and all of these just incredible people and

that collective leads to collaborations such as this, which I am so grateful for. for those who are probably figuring now, for us three, all podcasters in this grief and loss space. And I think it's just a testament to how we can really come together, have these beautiful conversations, hold the space, just get really real with each other and with all of you listening on all the things, and especially as the holiday season is...

right around us. We're in the thick of it right now. So we'll touch on that today too. But all that aside, welcome to both of you. I dare I say I'm really excited to get into all the grief and death and loss and all the things. The only griefy podcasters who can say we're so excited to talk about death and loss. Thank you so much. It's an absolute honor to be here with both of you and to share about our griefy

And know, in the happiest, saddest time of the year is what I like to call it. It's like the happiest, saddest, because it's all the things. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's like you both said that it's to be excited to talk about loss and grief and death and all the things can feel really weird. But at the same time, it's just part of who we are. And I think that's what makes our journey so beautiful as well. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me as well, Tara.

Of course. Yeah, and I think what you just said, something that just like really resonated with me, it's like a part of who we are, but it's not all of who we are. And I know so many people that are, I'll just say kind of it this way, like a little bit earlier on with their grief, or they're still sort of maybe more in the thick of it, let's say that it's like, it's all consuming, right? And I think we've all three been there in our own way where it's like, okay, this is gonna be my whole personality now. Like, I am just.

But I think we're all three a great testament to how this is exactly what we're talking about today. How grief can evolve, what that looks like, how we can continue living on and find things that light us up, be it talking about grief and loss. But I know we are all so much more than who we've lost and what we've been through. And it really is that beautiful experience of, okay, how do we carry them with us now? And what is that?

look like for each of us. And there might be some similarities and there might be some differences. So that being said, I would love to kick this off with let's just maybe introduce ourselves for those who are listening that don't know one or all of us and giving the name of your podcast as well. Because depending on where someone's listening, this is available on all three of our podcasts, but just in case and just kind of our mission, our why behind it. And then just a very quick high level background of your experience with loss. do you maybe want to kick it off and then we can go to Liz?

Absolutely. So my name is Nina Rodriguez. I am the creator and host and producer and all the things of Grief and Light. And it's an absolute honor to be here. But the podcast started obviously not from joy. It started from the loss of my only sibling. His name is Joseph. And as of the time that we're recording, it's actually Worldwide, Worldwide Bereaved Siblings Month. That is a mouthful. So Worldwide Bereaved Siblings Month.

And you know, it's very, so it's very present. And on top of that, it's the week of Thanksgiving, which used to be, I shared this on Liz's podcast too, that it used to be his favorite holiday. So it's when he would be the most present and the most, the time that we would be like brother and sister at any age, you know, like as kids, teenagers, then adults, it was like our little bonding time. So his absence is extra loud right now. It's incredibly loud. Right after this, we're going to my uncle's house.

to celebrate my cousin's 16th birthday. And so it's like all these little family gatherings, they bring the happy sad with them, the this and that. And one thing you touched on that as you were mentioning it, it reminded me of this grief on year one. I remember feeling like, my gosh, my life is going to always be just awful. Like this crazy sadness, just this sucks. Will this ever end? Because I don't see it ending.

And I remember right around this time, actually, right around the holidays, my family got together to watch a movie, just to be in each other's presence and be together. And then I cannot remember the movie. I think it was called like The Cabin. I want to say it was called, but don't quote me on that. And I was zoned out, but I wasn't paying attention until there was this one scene where a mother, she lost her son and she's talking about her grief. And she's explaining that grief is all consuming at the beginning.

but over the years, it feels like this pebble that she carried in her pocket. She always carries this pebble in her pocket. And over the years, it's just this thing that you feel that you're carrying with you all the time. It's ever-present, but it's not overwhelming. And then she said, there will come a time when you will want to stick your hand in your pocket to feel it and reconnect with it again. And I'm paraphrasing because I'm not, I don't remember the exact words.

But I remember that was the first glimmer of hope that I felt in those early days when I couldn't tell right from left and I felt like my family was crumbling, my parents were absolutely devastated. So witnessing their grief was incredibly intense. So that was like that first time that I ever said, okay, if they're making a movie about it or like if it's a scene in a movie, then it must be true on some level. And that was the first time it gave me hope. So.

little bit of a detour from the introduction, but I felt it was a beautiful mention because when you were talking about those early days, it reminded me of that. Yeah, I think that's such a beautiful analogy. Like that's something that's like prevalent and perfect for people to keep in mind, especially if anyone is catching this right now around the holiday season, but like in general, right? Because it's yeah, mean, grief doesn't need a holiday to show up. But no, I love that.

I'm gonna just kind of before I introduce myself, I love it too, because as a griever that has been grieving her daughter for 17 years, and that idea of like that sometimes you do want to reach into the pocket and just hold on to that pebble because you want those memories, you want that grief is so true. I can so relate to exactly that. There are times where I just want to feel her. I just want her presence. And so sometimes

you do go digging into your pocket to find it. So, yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing, Nina. Thank you too. Someone in a nutshell, grief is a pebble in your pocket. The end. We should go home now. me away from this conversation today, let it be that. Right, right. So, my name is Liz Quinn and I am the host, creator, producer, all the things of Healing Hearts podcast. It's a podcast where

You can come and just share your story of love, loss, and light. And really, anyone can share their story. I think one of my main models is everyone has a story and it deserves to be heard if you want it to be heard. like I shared before, grief kind of found me 17 years ago after I lost my daughter, my first born daughter. And I'd say grief consumed me for quite a while. And then flash forward about 10 to 12 years, I lost both of my parents.

And then that kind of opened more wounds of grief and allowed me to start to explore having a podcast and being involved in the community and really realizing that like I can do something with this instead of letting it sit with me. I can let it sit with me, but also help others. And so that's what brings me here with these lovely ladies.

I love it. I love it. I love that we all, you know, kind of have our own way of podcasting a little bit. I think all of us welcome guests and I love that because like, there's, there's unfortunate, there's like too many stories that need sharing. You know what I mean? There's always more space to be held with grief and with allowing people to share what they're comfortable with. And yeah, it's, it's a gift and it's very cathartic too. Like, I don't know, before I like dig into my stuff, I was just going to ask you guys like,

Has speaking about it and having your podcast helped you guys heal in your own way? Has it been very cathartic? A thousand percent, yes. Absolutely. And not just that, but every time somebody in our group, in our Get Griefy collective said, hey, I'm saying the same story over and over again on all of your podcasts. Is that annoying? And I said, absolutely not. First of all,

The same story is not told the same each time and each conversation brings out something new. And the audiences may receive it differently. The styles may be different. It's so cathartic, yes, and healing. And it's okay. It is our story. And the more it's shared, the more I believe we... I'm hesitating on using the word heal because I have some love-hate relationship with it. yes, more we heal. more we process, integrate, and move forward. Yes.

I love the idea that we can have that me too moment. That we can share our stories and no matter what, who we've lost, there's usually a me too moment. I mean, I know that like I share the loss of my parents with Tara, so that's a definitely big me too moment. But I've had me too moments with Nina and I have not lost a sibling. know, and so like I think that's what I love about sharing our stories is that no matter

who we're sharing about, more often than not, there's something related in that story for us to connect to. That's why I think any story is worth sharing. Well said. And I've loved the way, that you witnessed your children, like, the way that they embraced their sister Olivia as part of the family, even though they technically never met her in the physical. But...

I absolutely love that because it talks to that unseen bond of the sibling lost connection even as children. And whenever I hear you talk about that, it heals something in me because it's like, here's a mother's perspective on that witnessing even in her young children. And that's just so beautiful. And it just feels like a point of connection as well. So yeah, tear. you. Thank you. I appreciate that because it's definitely a challenge.

with the kids. After we lost Olivia, I didn't think about their grief. I didn't think about my kids and them having grief because they didn't know her. Why would they have grief? And I quickly learned, of course they're going to have grief because we didn't shun her. We didn't hide her. We didn't keep her in a box. She is part of our daily life.

has a picture on the wall, she has a tree. I was going to be calling it a tree. like, know, like, full blown, she is a part of us and the kids know her story and they're constantly thinking about her. I mean, even to this week, my 12 year old last week asked, like literally we were at the dinner table and he was talking about, he's like, I wish I had gotten to know, wish I could have gotten to know Olivia. It's unfair that I didn't get to.

I mean, he's 12 and he's still thinking about his sister. So, yeah. That's amazing. He's naming that, you know, just being like, just something simple that just feels unfair. Yeah. It is unfair. Yeah. I mean, that's basically how we all just agreed like, yep, that it sucks. wish I could validation. Yeah. Yeah. Even all these years later. Yeah. That's the point of this conversation.

I love this. I'm going to make mine so short because I really want to dig into all of this. But Liz, like you said, my podcast and everything I do was also birthed ultimately from the deaths of my parents as well. I lost both of them to cancer within six months of each other, probably about six years ago. my God, is this going to be the seventh year without my mom? I lost her in December. that also, you know, it makes this time of year really fun as if it was not already.

Yeah, in 2019. yeah, anyway. And then my dad in July of 2020. So with COVID and everything, that was also very humbling and just a wild time, as we all know. But yeah, I never set out to sort of podcast. It sort of found me. I started Losses Become Gains in November of 2021, I want to say.

And then the following year, I had gotten a microphone actually for kind of a separate reason. And then I was like, this is kind of fun. I feel very official. Let me see what I can do with this. Never thought I'd start a podcast like most people kind of don't. I guess that's kind of a generalization. But anyway, I just found it and I was like, this is cool. This feels really good. But then I started making more friends in this space too. And I was like, well, I don't want to just listen to myself talk all day, even though I could. Let's bring on other people. Like you said, Liz, everyone has a story to share.

And I think for a lot of us, it's like, you know, the more we do it, the more like momentum we feel. And it's like, my gosh, we are changing things on grief a little by little, right? Like just one, so cliche, but like one conversation at a time. And it's transformative. And I'm sure you guys too have had guests where like, I've had a few where like this is, it was the first time they ever talked about their grief really openly on like a public platform and really got it out there.

And they were like, that was scary, but like so exhilarating and thank you for holding the space. Like thank you for making me feel safe to do that. like, you know, to have even a container to feel safe to talk about, you know, some heavy, very traumatic situations in some cases, like it's, it's a lot. So I, you know, I'm very proud of the three of us too, that we, you know, we make people feel comfortable enough to do that. That's an amazing thing. And

Yeah, so it's just, I've had it for, I don't know, over two and a half years now. And as the name implies, life with grief, it's figuring out how to do life with grief and what that entails and looks like and feels like on a daily basis. just, again, just being so real and raw about it, like all of us do in our own way. And yeah, it has been like the most fulfilling. I was out of like coaching. It's been probably like the most fulfilling thing.

maybe ever do in my life other than having my daughter and getting married and all that stuff. But that all being said, yeah, it's just, it's certainly helped me in my grieving journey. But of course, for all of the people here listening today, maybe you don't have a grief podcast and that's totally fine. And I'm sure for all of us, there's been ways that we have felt our grief shift and evolve and

Each year takes on a different form. you know, of course there's this whole narrative that, you the first year is the hardest and I feel in many ways that is certainly true. But each year also, I think, brings up new things in our grief. And for me personally, I became a mom, it'll be two years ago in January, and I didn't have my parents there for, my engagement, my wedding, meeting my daughter. Like, they missed all of that. And those were all things I

always thought I would have my parents there for. so it's, you know, there was grief with all of those things, all the milestones. And then of course, I'll just like the small quiet moments where we just miss them and wish we could text them and all the things, hug them. And, but yeah, I think that has been the thing that has brought up the most for me and especially around the holiday season. And I'm like, okay, how do I, you know, find gratitude for my husband and his family and his parents, which are like,

very, very blessed to have that, but balanced that duality of like, could be so grateful for that, but feel so hurt and upset. And like, it's so unfair that I don't have my parents here to do my holiday traditions and all of that too. And how do I keep that going for her? And then what do my traditions look like now? And what's the same? What's different? And it's all these things that I think a lot of people here listening can empathize with of like, you just un-

heck, more and more and more over time and every year looks different. So I would love to hear from you guys, you know, again, in the spirit of grief awareness week, and we can touch on maybe the holidays in a moment, but I just would love to hear from both of you what that, I'm hesitant to use the word journey, because journey always seems like there's an end or whatever, but just bear with me. In your grief experience thus far, can you just walk us through that? And like, what has

perhaps surprised you the most, maybe positively or negatively, or what has impacted you the most over the years. And Liz, maybe we can start with you on this one.

I know this is a big question too, by the way. Sorry. Just throw like the most existential question at you ever, however you want to answer. Okay. No, not a problem. So yeah, mean, grief has definitely, it evolves, it shifts, it changes. It does all of those magical things. So I'd say that losing Olivia, our daughter, definitely the hardest thing.

with all of that is milestones. You talked about those and like, you know, you didn't have your parents at your wedding. Honestly, that first year is full of them. After you lose a child, it's just full of all of first this, first that, first this, you know. And so, you know, for sure, I can't say the first year was the hardest. I think it is the most numbing.

You know, I think that's probably the key word for me that first year is always the most numbing and the most blurry. Like, I don't remember all of it because you're just kind of like, you know, I mean, I know I remember after losing my parents, I don't remember how I got from point A to point B, but somehow I did. I took care of the kids and they survived because they came home from school and all the things, but I don't remember all of that.

Clearly I also took pictures because I have pictures of things that I do not remember doing or whatever. it's a really it's a big question because ultimately every day is different when it comes to grief as well. So like each year evolves each day each moment. You know there's that cliche saying of like you take each time you know you take it one minute one moment.

by time. And it's very much true, you know, because you just never know what's going to happen and things like that. I mean, and to think even grief in the aspect of not just of a loss of losing someone, but we just recently moved to Virginia and this is our first holiday in this house. And so there's those traditions that you have to think about and so there's it's

I feel like grief, because it's one of those most universal things that we're ever going to go through, it's just always part of who we are. It's always part of our life. And it is just going to ebb and flow. It's going to do all of those things. I guess that's just it. You just have to be ready and prepared for all of the different shapes that grief is going to bring into your life.

Yeah, the secondary losses. And we could have a whole conversation on secondary losses alone, but I definitely think as you were talking, that's what came up for me too, was like... Yeah, and I guess that's what I was kind of thinking. Yeah. And like it stems from, you know, it can stem from a death, right? A quote major loss, I guess, if you will. But I think that's the thing. And again, in the spirit of like grief awareness that like I wish people were more...

aware of, more cognizant of, more grievers for sure, but like the supporting people in their life, to be able to like have that empathy to put ourselves in that person's shoes for five minutes and realize not only just how much someone is carrying, again, this conversation is very much kind of around the death of a loved one, but like even taking that out of it, just how much that person is carrying and in how many ways

this has affected someone's life. Speaking of moving, right? Like what if somebody, I've heard this happen so many times, I'm sure you guys have had guests like this too, where it's like, okay, like let's say, you know, a loved one or a spouse or something dies, right? And they can't afford to stay in the home that they were at because they don't have that second income now. all these things we didn't, we certainly didn't ask for the death, but like all these other things that has now affected our life that we are also.

devastated by each one of those things might be kind of devastating on their own on top of all of this. And that can unravel for years potentially after, for example, a death. it's, again, I feel like we can never say that enough, but which people would like get it. It's the point of this conversation, guess.

It's that perpetual like echo and that ripple effect, I call it like the ripple effect of the loss. And you were asking earlier what was surprising about grief. For me, it was one how physical it was. I had no idea. I was like, am I going to die? This feels like a heart attack. What is happening? I can't breathe. Like I'm dizzy. All these things that started happening. I gained a lot of weight and my face was swollen. My poor grandmother, she broke out in hives. My mother has vitiligo, skin condition where it's

you lose your pigmentation. over seemingly overnight, she like lost all her pigmentation. She was literally fading in front of my eyes. So was just so much change at once. And we had no idea that this was all related to the loss of my brother, right? So that ripple effect. And like you said, Liz, I did a podcast on the first five years of grief because in my mind, after I started to kind of understand like, okay, this thing isn't going to leave anytime soon.

It's probably here to stay, so how do I navigate life with this weird roommate who just moved into my house and I don't know how to live with it? So year one is definitely shock and fog. Year two was the year of permanency where it's like, no, this not only happened, but like forever and ever and ever again. Like what? Are you kidding me? And year three and four, I forgot what I called them, but it's just that.

acceptance. one thing, and Terry, you just mentioned this, like grief is not just with the loss of a person. I'm fully accepting that my brother's not coming back. So it's not a denial. It's everything that went with him. And in the case of, well, any loss, who we are in relation to that person goes with them as well. And the smallest things can just feel like the biggest loss. example, when we were kids, and I remember, Liz, I wish I

told you this before because we talked about this on your podcast too, but I couldn't remember this in the moment, but there was something we wanted on TV. We're from the 1900s. We're like elder millennials here. So we saw something on like the home shopping network or QVC or something when we were kids that we wanted. It's like a toy. And my parents weren't home. So we were like, my gosh, we need to remember this number. So we repeated the number. made it into a jingle. And for the longest times, like, you know, we were grown adults.

singing this jingle of like remember that thing we wanted we can't even remember what it was but we still remember that phone number and I always forgot the last two numbers that he remembered the full thing and I kid you not when I lost him I was like grieving the fact that he would never be there to remind me of this silly phone number so a couple of months ago my dad he found this video where my brother is getting a drone for Christmas and he's

being silly and goofy and we're all in the living room and I'm looking at it all nostalgic and all of a sudden I hear him say the number and I was so excited and I burst into tears because it was like, my gosh, it's still there. It's still there. And you know, it's a way of like him coming back. This was six years later. He died in 2019, September, 2019. So we've had this video. We just didn't realize it. So these are those ripple effects of loss. And also he was my only sibling.

He didn't have children, he never married, I never got to be an auntie. You know, it's all these things that will never be. I don't have kids. I will have to, in the natural order of things, bury my parents, face life's milestones by myself. Like, looking into the future, towards the future, it just feels really lonely.

And like I said, after this, I'm going to see family. get to see my mom with her brothers. And my husband has like six siblings. So they're always texting and in the group chat and all the things. And he's laughing in the corner by himself. So it's like all these little ways that their absence is so loud, so, so loud. It's kind of like, I hate to say thrown in your face a little bit, but I, first of all, that phone number story, I freaking love that. was like,

I'm like on the edge of my seat. was like, just, love, I love stuff like that. It is really right over a phone number. Girl, I can see why. Well, it's visceral. It like brings them back to life for like a second. Anytime I hear one of my parents' names or something, or I've almost wanted to do that thing where I like order a coffee in my mom's name or something like that. I need to do that. It might, it might kind of like, I don't know, be upsetting, but like so cathartic in the same way. I don't know, but just things like that, that kind of like.

Yeah, they jolt you. Actually, I'm so glad you brought that up because that's like a great example. Six years later, right? But it like it can be so funny when you use the word triggering, but like you just never you just never know. But it's just another testament to the fact that like there is no timeline on any of this. And you just their their memory and their physical experiences with them like it lasts a lifetime. It just does.

And it's something that people need to be understanding of. And the way of like acceptance, I agree with so much of what you said. And actually one of our friends kind of in this grief space of ours had worded it once like resignation almost. Cause I think people have like, I get the issue with the word like acceptance, like that almost feels like you have to like be okay with it. You know what I mean? So he'd use the word resignation once. And I was like,

Okay, I get that because I almost feel like with resignation, it's just like, I'm resigned to the fact that these are my, this is a fact. My parents are dead. My sweet 19 year old dog, she is dead. I can't, I can't bring them back. That is a fact. cannot change. But I don't have to, I don't have to be happy about it. But like, okay, what is that process of being like resigned to my circumstances essentially look like? And, and you know, like what

Like, what is that process? And it's hard to even kind of like name that process. Like Liz, I under, like empathizing a lot with like what you were saying in that first year, feeling very numb and just like, where am I? Who am I? What am I even doing here? Kind of thing. And I think there's a lot of people here listening that can, you know, feel that too. I also very much went through that and like re-identify like who we are, right? And like Nina, what you were saying too about just like, you know, your identity as

a sister, then all of these other relationships that have changed. we, one thing I definitely want to like name, and I feel like all of us can have experienced this and continue to experience this in our own way is that I want to touch on today, seeing what, seeing other people have what we no longer do. And we can be so like happy for them and, and grateful perhaps that we have, you know,

those people in our life, but still, again, that, and that both thing that I know a lot of us talk about is like having that gratitude, but also being frankly kind of envious sometimes, or what I, and not like shaming ourselves for that, because I feel that with my husband and speaking about the holidays, like again, we go to his family. I see him have this relationship with his parents and my daughter has with them and

I could easily get, I have a lot of clients ask me this, like, how do you not get stuck in the envy and in the resentment over that? I almost like don't even, I wanna hear from you guys on this too, but like, basically what I always say is like, I don't even know that I have a great answer for that. just, first of all, it's like exposure therapy. You just witness it enough, you have to deal with it enough that it's just like.

Hey, I get, you know, it's just like kind of wears you down after a while. You just like, I don't know, kind of become okay with it. But the thing that I had to tell myself was like, it's not my husband's fault. Like this, I'm going to say this so bluntly. It's not my husband's fault. His parents aren't Knock on wood, by the way. It's not, it's not fair. And it doesn't make sense that this happened to me, that this happened to my parents, that this happened to my family, that I feel like it just wasn't supposed to happen to us, you know, like that kind of a feeling. But

But it did, but it did. And we can just sit in that. It's very uncomfortable, but it's like just being with that. And it's, again, it's one of the most uncomfortable, painful things we sort of have to do. But in terms of, I was talking to a client this week, which is why this whole like envy, jealousy thing is sort of on my mind. But again, in terms of like being very painfully aware of the effect that grief can have on our lives like that.

Speaking of ripples, can really ripple for a long time. That takes a while to, I hate to use the word get used to, but it's hard. It hurts. even, again, years later, felt that even before my husband and had my daughter, but now especially with her, I'm like re-navigating that in a way. I don't know if either of you can relate to that or... You can jump in and just say, so when...

I was pregnant with Olivia. I was pregnant with a friend and she was due three days around. She was due the same time I was, right around the same time in July of 2008. And I lost mine and she kept hers. And it was really hard. So hard that we're no longer friends. Because it's just, it's one.

She didn't handle, she was not that, you know, see me in my shoes type of friend, which is unfortunate. She was more like, you know, three months later, aren't you over this yet? And, you know, clearly I'm not, you got to keep yours, I didn't, you know, but like that jealousy, that envy, that resentment, 100%, I think it 100 % happens.

with all laws. I personally, just because I've experienced loss of a child and loss of an infant, I definitely feel like I felt it a lot. know, because it's everywhere. It's everywhere. You walk in Target and it's in the slap you in the face. I mean, I don't know how many times I've cried in the middle of a baby aisle of Target. You know, even many years later and you're buying a baby shower gift for

a friend and you want to buy this baby shower gift for the friend because you're excited for them and all things. But then you're looking at all these things and you're like, you know, like, yike. and I think really the best way to say that, like, we don't only move forward, we just kind of let it move through us. You know, we let that feeling go through us, however it is. And

wherever it stays, stays for that moment and then it moves somewhere else. I think I love one of the quotes you had on my podcast, Nina, about like, you've talked about how like grief is taking up the space and it's living in this living with you and whatever, but you won't let it live in your bones. You know, and I think that's exactly kind of where it is, is like, it lives with us, but we don't love it take up so much space that

It consumes our bones and it just drags us down. It can live in our heart sometimes and sometimes it can live in the foot. It's literally all over our whole body, but it's not making us feel heavy all the time. We have moments where we feel heavy, but I lost my train of thought, which is very common. No, that's very on brand for grief.

No, and thank you for naming that. was the, that's when I learned about broken heart syndrome and I read this Harvard study on broken heart syndrome and I was like, can you die from grief? And am I going to die? And is this going to kill my parents? And that was like where my mind just took off wondering all the things that were going to happen or may happen. And there's Takotsuwa cardiomyopathy, which is the broken heart syndrome and mostly it affects women and usually in the first year, all the things.

So without getting into too much details, I just made a promise to myself because I was like, I cannot put my parents through this again. I cannot be so affected that they lose a second child, right? So I promised myself, like you said, Liz, grief can go through me. It could live next to me. It could interact with me, but it will not live in my bones. I will refuse to have that. And it's been a promise kept because you know that quote, like grief is love with nowhere to go. I've also heard grief is love with everywhere to go.

So I said, cool, let's give this grief places to go. And that started with social media, then became the podcast and the coaching and all the things. And a quick note on jealousy. Absolutely, are you kidding me? You how many times I hear, I hate my sister, I hate my brother, we don't get along. I haven't talked to them in 25 years. And I'm like, not making fun of that or even light of that because there's grief in there. And also I wanna shake you and be like, then why wasn't it you? I'm so angry.

Then why did I lose mine? I love mine and I loved spending time with him and he was the funniest guy and I miss his laughter. Like why not yours? And I think we need to extend grace to ourselves and just speak honestly. It sucks. I get mad when my, even my husband, when his siblings call, he's like, I'll call her back later. I'm like, how dare you? Like you better pick up the phone right now. I'm going to pick it up for you. Like you don't do that.

so it's just being honest about like, yeah, yeah, it sucks. I am angry. I wish it would have been your person instead. Clearly you don't care as much, which is not true, but that's how it feels. know, like that's how it feels. So I'm not, you know, nuance here. I'm not making light of all of these things. And also it expands our capacity to hold space for these people. Like part of the reason I got certified is because I went into the one of the few

grief groups that I found for adult sibling loss. And I would dare say like 85, 90 % of the conversation was, I hate my sibling. I'm so angry at them. I resent them. And they held this hostility, which is like the opposite of what I was feeling. So then I thought, am I wrong here? Like, am I the wrong one? And that's when I realized like, you know, cliches, everybody grieves differently, you know, not everything's forever. And it's okay to have these.

nuanced relationships, not everybody was closed, that's okay. And so honoring all of it. So if you feel angry, cool, that's fair. I feel like that's an appropriate response to everything that's happened. And also, you know, extending that grace to ourselves and each other. Yeah. So well said. I want to be able to have enough time to touch on the holiday season specifically. And I think so much of what we've already said today can like,

applied to a lot of different times of year. Again, not that grief discriminates during the holidays, but it can be louder during the holidays, right? And especially like, Nina, what you were saying earlier, I definitely feel that with my mom. Like I know there's people listening here that have also lost a loved one in and around the holiday season. And even if they haven't, it just sucks. And it's extra hard. And especially, and I think like a lot of us have had like...

episodes around the holidays and you know, we're just we're so inundated with this like happy and joyful be merry whatever and sometimes we just want to be like shut up I don't want to be happy or joyful or merry or anything but I think the point is we we can let little bits of that in I was literally on a phone with a client this morning and They just lost their they lost their parents was you'll get like six weeks apart

Their mom like earlier this year and then dad six weeks later. And it was recent, it was in like October that they just lost their dad. I'm like, hi, you're a newbie, okay. So like just take some of the pressure off number one. But they're wondering like, what do I even do this holiday season? And it's so interesting because they're actually sisters and I meet with them separately. And like one was mentioning that, you know, like one kind of clings maybe a little bit more to the traditions versus one that's kind of like, I just want to.

blow it all up and I'm like, girl, I feel that, I feel the other way. Like I feel both ends of the spectrum on this. And so I was so grateful for that. But one, I think that's such a perfect example of people grieving differently, even though you've lost the same people, like look at how people handle it differently, right? But also, where do we even start with the holidays? And so I would love to hear from both of you and I'll let either of you answer this first and kind of really however you want to, but.

I was curious what has been maybe some of the most difficult parts of your holiday season for you and just how that has evolved over time. if it makes sense in this question to mention something that has helped you or know, stick into a certain tradition or just completely releasing it and finding your own, like what has been, again, using this term very loosely, what has been healing and helpful for you this time of year?

jump in to start. So obviously one of the biggest things that has been very quote unquote healing for my family and myself is our Olivia tree as you can see behind us. After you have to be lost our daughter that first holiday I pretty much was telling my whole family I'm boycotting it. I wanted nothing to do with it. And I've told this story.

so many times, so I'll try to keep it brief. But my mom was this person who, not pushy, but sometimes moms do no best. They just have this inkling. And so she decided to give me a six-foot tree and a bunch of lights and all the things and said, just in case you need it. And lo and behold, that is how our Olivia tree was formed. It was a rainy afternoon and it was lonely and dark in my

little apartment and decided to go and get that tree and set it up. And Olivia's tree was born and we have been putting it up ever since for the last 17 years. Now it's a little more bittersweet in the fact that like I wouldn't even have this tradition without my mom, you know? And so I, there's so much joy in that just thinking that like this tradition wouldn't have been possible without my mom being like, Hey,

I know you a little better than you do. And so that's whatever. And so I cling to that. In the holidays, I cling to traditions. Those are the one things that I am able to pass down to my kids to be able to honor Olivia, but also honor my parents. We were really big into traditions and baking cookies, and we made sugar cookies.

and all the things and so we do that every year. We make, so that's what I do for the holidays is I just try to find ways to be able to.

share traditions, but in those traditions, we're sharing stories. And while we're sharing those stories, we're able to bring them into our lives, even though they don't know who they were. So, yeah. That's personally, I just want to say that's that's inspiring for me. Your kids are a little bit older than mine, but like I've been struggling with that a little bit. like, okay, what, how, this is gonna sound funny, what I'm gonna say, but like, how do I not?

allow my husband's whole family to take over so that my tradition, my family and my parents and all of that aren't totally lost in the shuffle. And I've had to like go back and think, I'm like, what did we do? Did we have traditions? Like, you know, I'm like kind of questioning that a little bit, but my mom was big on baking and stuff too. So it's like all these little things. So now that I'm a parent, I think I'm trying to figure out like, okay, what is of my parents that I can bring in and make sense of?

guess I'll give my husband a little bit like, what can I bring in of his family? And then like, what's ours? And how can I make that special and feel good and knowing that it can and will evolve. And I'm like, if something doesn't feel good, I think that's like my one message to you for Griebers, like in the holiday season, what can and will feel good in one year might feel so off and so, I'm sure one of you would have ended up saying that, like it feels the next. And that can feel so confusing and so like exhausting because you're like,

can I just get like one break here? But like, it's just something, if anything, I hope that just helps take some of the pressure off. Cause it's like, no, no, you don't have to figure it out. That's the beauty of it. Like, yeah, you can ignore it a little bit if you want to, but if it helps you to bring the traditions in, great. If like, if that feels good. But if the, if the next year that's feeling, that's bringing something up and it's feeling more painful, like release what feels good to release and God willing there's next year. Right? So yeah, it's, it's all about just like what.

Yeah, that is literally a good chunk of what me and Nina just talked about last week in my holiday series on the podcast. it literally is like that. each year can be different and even her kind of just navigating so I can let her go a little bit more. I say, I didn't steal your thunder.

No, no, I think in all fairness, Tara, when you said like your husband's family kind of stealing the spotlight, same. His family's huge. They love a good party. Anytime between, I don't know, death, that would have sounded great. there are, you know, especially those early years, I was like, I don't, not only do I not want to go, that sounds just awful right now. That just sounds like the worst thing you could possibly ever invite me to. Even though, A, I still wanted to be invited. I didn't want you to like not invite me. I just wanted to be able to say no. No, thank you.

So the first few years I was just like, please don't take it personal. I just can, I cannot, I cannot. We couldn't even be, my mom, I took my mom to this museum and they had holiday music and we paid for the ticket and then left because we were like, no, I don't think so. And also like what you both said, then I think it was like you're a three or four. It was very welcome. I was like, you know what? A little bit of joy is actually refreshing right now. And I do like that they are so lighthearted and they're not talking about grief and all the things. So was really nice. And also, no, it's like.

I'm a big fan of permission to say no, permission to opt out, permission to leave early without guilt, without the inner turmoil. Very quickly, I found this holiday bill of rights on the interwebs and it's a list. I'm not going to read them all, but it's like, you have the right to make your own decisions, to do something totally different, to get out of town or stay home, to be kind to yourself, to get on the roller coaster of emotions, to cry in public.

and on and on. And it's like, you know, it's such a refreshing reminder that all of it is okay. And I think what is really difficult is when with usually the best of intentions, families and friends are like, hey, let's get your mind off of this. Let's take you out of your funk. Like, let's have a little bit of joy. And I know they mean well, but man, that is oftentimes the opposite of what we need in that moment, whether it's close family, friends, et cetera. So learning to say no without that inner guilt, I think is huge, huge, huge.

Definitely. I so resonate with that Nina and like what like being invited and being invited to things and it's because there's like sometimes it's just like how dare the world move forward and seemingly move on and not acknowledge my grief and how you know like the deaths of these people and it's just like do you even care am I the only one that feels this way and it can add I think so much to like the loneliness.

that we feel and so many grievers that we just feel like we're on our own little island with some of these in some of these situations and the holidays can be especially harsh. And even if it's like the same family that lost the same person, let's say, again, in the spirit of everyone grieving differently, some people really wanna acknowledge it or maybe really wanna talk about them. And some are just like...

I can't, like the mention of their name, they're going to like break down. So they just, you know, like distance themselves from it. And so it's, it's, it just adds to the complexity. I'll just say of the situation.

All right. So as we start to wrap up, I would love to just get from both of you and you can answer this if you want to focus more on the holidays. Great. If just more in general, perfect. What is one piece of advice or guidance or just word of wisdom that you would give to someone here listening right now that is maybe feeling really stuck, really in the thick of it and maybe like kind of we've alluded to today. Like there's just, there's no coming out of this. There's no coming out of the fog like this whole

I'll never be the same again, kind of to which I would say that is correct. You will never be the same because loss changes you and it's okay. That's the whole point. There's kind of no going back to the person that we were before, right? So, but that being said, it can be very painful and very, there could be a lot of fear with like, what does the future look like? How do I, how am I gonna do this? Like Nina, what you've said a couple of times today about just like,

you know, literally, am I going to survive this? Because I think people have varying levels of those thoughts and it can be very scary. what would you what would you say? And Nina, we can start with you on this one. Right. Well, in talking about the future, one of my favorite quotes is the future is not what it used to be. And that has been attributed to a lot of different people. So I don't know who the source is, but it's literally on my Instagram profile and my social media platform, because it's exactly

what I experience. When I look ahead, if you want to get technical, none of us know what the future is going to look like. We don't have that much agency. We can plan for it and then life does whatever it does. But there's something about loss that at least before loss, there was some sort of way to predict the future. Like you assume your kids are going to grow up. You assume you're going to have holidays in your parents or in-laws or whatever. You assume you're going to be able to, or at least you hope you will.

there's some sense of predictability. So when that is removed and you look at the future, and not only is that no longer an option, but it almost looks bleak. in my case, I was telling Liz, there's something about children that does, side note, one of the things that somebody told me like three days after my brother died, they were like, you know what you have to do, right? And I was like, what? And then they're like, you have to have kids. So your parents are happy again. And I was like, goodbye. Bye.

So lovely knowing you. This is for months. with some years later, I think their intention wasn't saying like children help you look at the future with more lightness. Maybe, I don't know, you tell me. But there's something about having children that like the holidays are a little bit lighter. You have something to look forward to. So when you don't, and I'm the oldest and I just see my family getting older and everybody's just getting older and older and older. And while getting older is a blessing,

It also, if I'm very honest, it looks a little bleak for me with the grief being so present. So it's like, how do you look at the future and decide which direction you hope it could go in? What type of agency do you have in even making it any kind of light or hopeful or whatever? And so in my case, I have found that community has been everything.

talking about grief, connecting with you, being able to share honestly and say these things out loud so I'm not in my room thinking them by myself. Being able to share this already takes the edge of the pain down a few notches. And at the end of the day, we can make meaning in so many different ways and life doesn't have to look any particular way for you to feel that joy and knowing how to find joy in unexpected ways and with that resignation.

that things are not what they used to be, the future is not what they used to be. And especially if in your early grief, I'll finish with this, is that you take that timeline horizon and you bring it as short as possible. You shorten your timeline horizon. You are not the person that needs to make decisions a year from now. You're not the person that needs to make decisions six months from now, not even week from now. So right now you're the person that needs to decide, do you wanna go?

eat something right now? Do you want to go to this event tonight? How long do you want to stay? Like just shorten the time length horizon and allow everything else to unfold as it needs to. Could not agree more. I literally said the same thing to a client in slightly different words this morning. I was because they were again worried about the future. There was just like because it because truly their future has been rocked. I won't even go into detail, obviously, but like it and it I'm like, I feel that. However,

Again, take the pressure off of yourself. Think about what is in the present moment, right here, right now, in front of you. What is in your control? Because grief and loss really does nothing, if not feel like it strips our control from us, right? especially, you know, really when anyone dies, but like, dies suddenly and it, you know, it's just, it's just like, my God, I'm losing control left and right. What is in my agency now?

in this moment or just any more in general. And it can feel very scary to plan for the future. Cause especially if that's, there's that feeling of like waiting for the other shoe to drop. And I think that's one of the places people can get very stuck because there's well, this happened and this happened. Of course, something else is going to happen. I just don't know when and where and how and why, right? But it's, what I kind of gently told them too was like, none of that's happened yet. Like, and you could say this to anybody, right? That we are worrying about things that haven't.

happened yet. you can't just say that and be like, oh, okay, great. So I won't worry about it. Like, I get it, right? It's not that easy. But I guess maybe more of as a friendly reminder, like you said it, like you can't control the future in a lot of ways. You can only control what we can control and have any given moment and just do the best with what you are, you know, kind of equipped for in any given moment. And in some moments we feel more equipped than others.

giving ourselves a lot of grace in the process. Liz, what about you?

I was going to say something very similar just because it's really is it's one decision at a time. You know, it really is decision to get out of bed, decision to brush your teeth, the decision to are you going to go for the run or are you going to sit on the couch? Like, and both are OK. One day you'll sit on the couch and the next day you'll go for the run. And those are all OK. I think something else I'm going to bring up, too, because I just didn't do much of it, especially after.

losing my daughter is that it's okay to set the boundaries. I know we briefly talked about it like what you talked about the holiday bill of rights and stuff like that, but it's okay to set those boundaries and to set them early. You don't have to set them a year from now. You know, you can set them day one. You know, you can say, I'm not going to so and so's party because someone there is pregnant.

or someone there is this, because that's okay. If you know that's a trigger, if you know that's something that is not going to bring you joy or make you feel okay, then it's okay to say no. No is a full sentence. I think that's really important. And I think another thing that I think we don't think about is that it's also okay to have a script in your head when you go to these events.

If you're at an event and someone asks you a question, it's okay to think about what those questions are going to be and have a script for you to say instead of being like caught off guard. Because we can be caught off guard. mean, the first time I was ever asked how many children do you have after I lost Olivia, I said none. Because I technically in a sense felt like I didn't have any because she was not physically here. You know, and now 17 years later when I'm asked that question,

I gauge who I'm with and how much I want to give. I will almost always say four, but it gets kind of like, do I go into more detail? Do I talk about I have one in heaven or I have, you know, whatever? And that's okay to have those like, think about what you're going to talk about beforehand. And that goes not just holiday parties, that just goes in general. Like you're allowed to have ideas of what you're going to say ahead of time. So.

Yeah, that's a great point. For anyone who's not watching this on video, when you said no is a full sentence, I was like clapping. was like, yes, because it's so true. And that's a great idea. Maybe I've kind of unknowingly done that over the years of kind of like what I'd say. yeah, because people do and will catch you off guard, not even in a malicious way, right? They're just poor people asking a question. we never know what could potentially trigger us.

There's a lot of mental preparation, I think, with grieving sometimes. And we don't want always know what, how, how to prep. But I think that's, to bring it back to the work that us three do and the purposes of our podcasts and all the things are for these conversations and to hopefully give grievers a chance out there, you know, to not be triggered by every, you know,

song we hear in the grocery store or certain questions of well-intentioned people because as the three of us and many people here listening know, know, the world does not stop for us and our loss and our grief. And it's painful and it is certainly not always pretty, but it's one of those things where I hate to say, you know, it's like, as grief, we just have to get used to it. like, but you do, but it's doing it in a way that

It feels aligned to each of us and is impactful. again, like you said, it's just, it is a moment by moment, day to day thing. it is, again, this might be cliche or maybe we just hear this a lot, but it truly is those baby steps. And I think in our own ways, that's how all three of us have gotten to the places that we have. There's magic in that, even though it doesn't feel like it a lot of the time.

I am so grateful for this conversation, you guys. I feel like we covered a pretty decent amount of ground in about an hour. We did well. Yeah. Yeah. And we got holidays in there and everything. So I have no doubt people here listening have taken at least one thing away from all of us here, but I truly do hope this was helpful. I'm so glad we, us three, able to do this and such a beautiful, powerful collaboration. So I just love all three of you and I'm so grateful for you guys' time today.

So much love to you. Thank you so much for holding the space and I love every time we get to do something together. ditto. Yes, thank you so much. I adore both of you so much. That's it for today's episode. Be sure to subscribe to the Grief and Light podcast. I'd also love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and your stories. Feel free to share them with me via my Instagram page at griefandlight or you can also visit griefandlight.com for more information and updates.

Thank you so much for being here, for being you, and always remember, you are not alone.