Kids' Grief & Healing: Michelle Cove on Grief-Smart Culture, Intuition and Community

How can we better support grieving kids and teens? 

In this episode of the Grief and Light podcast, Nina Rodriguez sits down with Michelle Cove, award-winning media maker, communications manager of Experience Camps and Grief Sucks,  in charge of making content across multiple platforms to build a more grief-smart culture. Together, they explore how teens navigate loss, the misconceptions surrounding teen grief, and the importance of creating safe spaces where young people can both process pain and simply be kids.

***Click here to watch on YouTube***

Michelle shares powerful insights from her work at Experience Camps, where children connect, play, and heal, emphasizing that grieving teens often seek companionship over solitude. They also discuss the dual process model of grief, the role of intuition in both grief and life decisions, and how storytelling through digital platforms, pop culture, and personal experience can foster understanding and community. 

This episode is a reminder that grief doesn’t have to be faced alone and that creating space for honest conversation is one of the most healing acts we can offer.

Key Takeaways:

• Grief is universal, yet we often struggle to talk about it openly.
• Experience Camps provide a safe, supportive space for grieving children to connect and heal.
• Building a grief-smart culture involves learning how to communicate about loss effectively.
• The dual model of grief allows fluid movement between processing intense emotions and returning to daily life.
• Pop culture can be a powerful tool for starting conversations about grief with teens.
• Teens often seek companionship over solitude when navigating loss.
• Validating a grieving person’s feelings without trying to "fix" them is essential.
• Grief can manifest differently across various life milestones.
• Intuition plays a crucial role in guiding grief and life decisions.
• Sharing stories of grief fosters connection, understanding, and community.

Guest: Michelle Cove

• Grief Sucks!
• Experience Camps
• Freeway Ride
• michellecove.com

Hosted by: Nina Rodriguez

• Creator of Grief and Light, Grief Guide
• griefandlight.com
• @griefandlight
• Resting Grief Face on Substack

Subscribe for more conversations that explore grief, healing, and what it means to be human.

Chapters

• 0:00 Preview & Intro song
• 0:33 Experience Camps: A Safe Space for Grieving Kids
• 6:05 Building a Grief Smart Culture
• 9:10 The Dual Model of Processing Grief
• 13:44 Grief Sucks: A Digital Platform for Teens
• 17:28 Myths About Teen Grief
• 21:21 Personal Stories of Grief
• 24:03 Navigating Personal Loss
• 27:01 Family Dynamics in Grief: A Personal Journey
• 33:52 Intuition and Inner Wisdom
• 36:29 Freeway Ride: Hunch Stories that Heal
• 42:28 Questions about Grief and Intuition
• 44:08 Supporting Grieving Teens: A Call to Action
• 46:50 Big Beautiful Life Ahead

Transcript

Grief doesn't just encompass sadness or just anger. That is also like joy and silliness and light and rage. It's all of the feelings. And so I like models that allow kids to be 360 kids with all of the feelings.

You just lost your loved one. Now what? Welcome to the Grief in Life podcast where we explore this new reality through grief-colored lenses. Openly, authentically, I'm your host, Nina Rodriguez. Let's get started. Hello and welcome back to the Grief in Life podcast. If you are new here, welcome. My name is Nina Rodriguez and I am your host. And today we are going to talk about why grief sucks. It just sucks, especially if you're a bereaved

I am joined by the amazing Michelle Kouf. She's a seasoned media maker, award-winning documentary filmmaker, best-selling author, and communications powerhouse behind Grief Sucks, a free digital platform co-created with experience camps to support grieving teens. Michelle brings over 25 years of storytelling expertise rooted in truth-telling.

disrupting harmful norms and helping people, especially young people, listen to their inner voice. From her work with grieving children to her newest storytelling platform, Freeway Ride, which I'm so excited to touch on, Michelle continues to create spaces where pain, intuition and personal power can coexist. Michelle, welcome to the Grief and Light Podcast.

Thank you, I'm happy to be with you.

It's such an honor and we had the opportunity to speak on your project Freeway Ride, which I'm so excited to touch on, but we'll leave it for the later part of the conversation. I first would love to know about what drew you to Grief Fork with younger children and with Experience Camp, and what is Experience Camp?

Yeah, all good questions. So Experience Camps is an award-winning national nonprofit, and the basic mission is to transform the lives of grieving children and give them experiences of joy. And so yes, grief sucks, but also kids are kids, and we...

You know, we really want to give them experiences where they learn to navigate their grief, but also get to be kids again, which is one of the things that gets robbed when you experience grief at an early age.

Definitely. And grief is already complicated enough even for adults, especially if we've never had those experiences. So it's even more layered for people who experienced it, unfortunately, earlier in life. I've heard, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard in conversation that people who experience grief as a child or a teenager have moments where their grief resurfaces during the milestones in their life. For example, if somebody lost their parents, maybe when they graduate or

if they get married, that grief kind of comes back with full force. Has that been something that you've heard from conversations?

I mean, even you can go back to like the kids at our camp. So we offer free week long camps for grieving kids where they get to go to sleep away camp for a week. And we have on average these kids return for five years and even year to year it's so different, right? Your grief at eight, at 10, at 12 is completely different because you're dealing with peer pressures and you're dealing with

you know, a father's day you had never had to experience before in that way, or yes, like all the way through the weddings, the babies, the grandchildren, like there's always something that you haven't yet had to deal with from that lens, right? So every time we think like, like I'm further along now and past my grief, here comes this new piece of high school graduation or it's my bar mitzvah, like something to remind you that once again.

There's this big presence not there.

And how does the work at Experience Camp, I know it provides them the space to fully explore these experiences and talk about it amongst themselves, but how else are they supported through this work?

Yeah, so as far as the camp, most of the day is not doing top therapy. I think a lot of people think it's like kids sitting in a field weeping, sharing tissues and spilling their guts. Most of the day actually looks like summer camp, as we know summer camp from like movies and TV with, know, swimming in the lake and silliness and Olympics and games. That's most of the day.

but baked into each day is one clinical session. And that could be a sharing circle, that could be an art project, that could be a six word memoir or a poem. So part of it is for sure like building in those skills and a chance to really talk about their person and their experience. But a lot of it is just being with, you know, 100 plus other kids where like so much of their lives in school is being that

or the one who experienced that tragedy. And I think like you notice almost as soon as they get off the bus at camp that their shoulders just like come down from their ears and they like just get to be people and kids and nobody is saying like, oh my God, I can't believe that happened. They're just kids and they've all been through something if not the same thing, something bonding.

And that's beautiful. That's actually part of the, I guess, maybe counterintuitive part of experiencing and talking about grief is that when we do have the space to be around people who get it, it's not something you need to be talking about all the time. It's not something, like you said, you don't sit around crying the whole time. you're laughing, you're having fun. But it's that knowing that if you needed to talk about it, you won't be judged for it. You're surrounded by people who get it. And that's part of

what I imagine you mean by building a grief smart culture, which is part of the mission. So what does that mean to you and how do you build a grief smart culture?

Yeah, I think that like in spite of the fact as you know very well that like we're all going to experience grief. It's this great universal. We just collectively don't know how to talk about it, right? And often we're so terrified to say something stupid that we say nothing at all. And then people are just in the grief and silence feeling alone. So I think part of it is just learning things you can say that don't feel like

scary to the person asking, right? I think there's this fear if I bring up a question or say, tell me about your person or what did they like or what was their name, that you're going to make that person feel sad. And it's like, no, they're just sad because they're grieving, right? Like, you're not going to remind them suddenly that their person died. But I think because everyone's so scared, they often don't have a chance to say, my dad's name was Larry.

You know, he loved to go out on his boat and he made me laugh by doing this silly thing, which is what keeps these people that we love so much around for us, right? So we're robbed of the experience of even getting to tell stories because other people are so uncomfortable.

And so with Experience Camp, in my understanding, this is something that is national here in the US, correct?

Yes, we are, I think we have 13, maybe 14 programs at this point spread across the country. There's waiting lists at all the camp, you know, unfortunately, it's really hard to keep up with the demand piece, but we're also very specific in making sure that the kids who want to return can return and that the kids who come are really ready to be there. It's a lot to ask, especially

not just for the camper, but for the caregivers to send these kids off to camp for a week when often they haven't left, you know, maybe even for more than a night since their person died. So we go through a very long process and we do clinical intakes and we make sure the family is set up for success. And each summer now we're adding one new program so that we're constantly growing, but just, you know, there's 6 million kids in this country.

who are grieving the death of a family member. And so also looking for other ways where we can reach this population.

Well, it's one of those bittersweet things. Like, it's great that you're expanding, and also it means that there's such a high demand for these spaces and for that type of, you know, space to be able to share your truth and have this experience together. And I like that you do it in a very curated way so that the integrity of the program is preserved and you're not growing faster just because. think that's really important and much appreciated. And how does grief manifest

or does grief manifest differently for teenagers and children versus adults in your observation and your experience?

Well, one thing that is so cool to see is that when you're with kids at camp, they can go from like sobbing and sharing about their dad who died from an addiction or their mom who died in an accident. And then it's time to like play volleyball and they're like, okay, bye.

So that dual model, which is something we really work with regularly, is kids can just flip back and forth. They can go very easily from, you know, being in the depths of despair and sorrow and be like, lunchtime. And I honestly think like adults, we could probably do a little better with that sometimes than like reliving.

the fear and the grief and the trauma over and over. And like we all process how we process, but there's something to be said for the beauty of these built-in breaks where you get to just recharge again, which we all need.

Absolutely. And for those who don't know, what is the dual model of processing grief?

It's basically that, you know, there's this belief that if you're talking about grief, you have to spend, you know, hours at a time or a solid hour, whatever it is, where you like really dive into the grief and you stay there, right? And then you don't want to rush out of that and you want to honor that and get into the depths of it. And this is a model that I think is just much more flexible and realistic and fluid, which is nobody can sustain that for like,

too much time and that there's something to be said for breaking it and moving into play. And that kids can swing back and forth from play to crying to all the emotions, right? And even one thing I think I learned like two years ago, which is embarrassing that it took so long is like grief doesn't just encompass sadness or just anger. That is also like joy and silliness and light and rage. It's all of the feelings.

And so I like models that allow kids to be 360 kids with all of the feelings.

I love that 360 kids. And maybe we could take some inspiration as adults. could be 360 adults and 360 women. to highlight on that point, think the reason that's so important is because the one model that went viral, if you will, over the past few decades, it's the more the stages of grief by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. And so that's a framework that a lot of people, especially if you're a first time griever, have. So to know that there are many other models that exist that could actually

work a lot better. to your point, we're not meant to be in this 100 % grief state all the time. We are 360 degree humans. And it sounds like in comparison to adults, adults have a lot of guilt around not grieving. So I haven't spent time grieving. I haven't done this. I haven't done that. And it sounds like kids feel it and then it's lunchtime and then they have to snap out of it. Especially lunchtime, yes.

Especially a gap. Yeah, I think... Yeah, you raised such a good point of this like five stages of grief model that adults feel really bound to. And what a lot of people still don't know is that grief model of five stages was really built for cancer patients. It was not built for people in general who are experiencing grief. And so...

Get some inspiration there.

I think because there's five and we like things in this country where we can have five things to do and check them off the list, we're like very attached. Yeah, but we, you your anger can show up every two years, right, in different ways. And that doesn't mean you're not doing it right or you're not moving through your grief. Those, again, those feelings come and go. And I think

Well, then we're done.

know, Kübler Ross never meant that to be the model that we all hold sacred. And so I think that model ended up in some ways doing more damage than good, which was not her fault. She was dealing with a cancer population that was very specific. So I think that gets in our own way too.

Definitely. And so the dual processing model is actually very helpful. And that's wonderful that they get to use that approach at Experience Camp. And so let's move to grief sucks. What is that? How did that come about? And how is that perhaps different from Experience Camp? What is its mission and anything you want to share with our audience about that?

Yeah, of course. So I think when it dawned on us how far away from six million kids we were gonna get at camp, you know, we'll get to 1600 kids this summer, which is great, but like pretty far from the numbers. We'd been really sitting with how do we get to thousands and thousands of kids? What would be the way in?

and we knew it would involve online and we wanted to know like how we could do it and have it not be like a sad place. Like these kids, if they see one more sad pamphlet, you know, like at the guidance counselors are like, that is not what they need. And so we knew we wanted to create like a digital space for them, for teens and

we worked with our youth advisory board. So we have anywhere from 20 to 30 teens who we work with who have all been to camp and are very articulate around their grief. They've been going for years. They're super grief smart. And we asked them at the get-go to help us design it and tell us what they'd want and what was missing from their lives. And I think it's what I'm almost most proud of because

because so many organizations ask kids what they think after the fact when it's already been designed. And there's no room for feedback that we really knew to go in early. And I love what they said. They love dark humor. They want to be a reverent. They don't want this to be precious for them. They want it to feel like pop culture. They want it to be cool. They want vibrant colors. They don't want sad, like navy blue and black and...

So we made this space, that's exactly that. So we look at pop culture images of grief and like who's getting it right, you know, on Netflix, in the music world, we do celebrity interviews with young people who've experienced grief. We do blog posts of like, do you get through graduation when your person's not there?

And we built this community that feels real to them because it is real, because they helped make it.

and it's built by them. think that's so important. Like you said, a lot of the information to date has been from the top down, like adults talking down to children, this is how you process this and this is how you do it. And the sad, sappy pamphlets that does not relate to them at all. So I think it's amazing that you let them lead and through their own inner wisdom and through the way that they communicate in the context of the current society we live in, things change. And so I think it's important, especially digital, making it digital.

Yeah, and I think like for me, there's a lot of organizations that are handling grief and kids really right and really beautifully and creating a lot of good content, know, very strong content. And we partner with many of them. And when people ask us like, what's different about us or our content, I think the thing that we've gotten really right is we knew from the start to give kids the microphone and say,

Why don't you be the expert since you're actually the experts? Like tell us what can adults say to you that's not cringy. You know, what makes you feel better when you're sad? Like what do you need from your teachers? And we always just hand them the mic and put a camera on them and let them tell their own stories. And to me, that's the best part of the job is hearing directly from them.

amazing and I'm curious like what myths or what things do adults get wrong about teen grief that maybe they didn't know.

my gosh. You don't have like nine hours.

A Maybe a handful.

Okay. Well, one summer I interviewed a whole bunch of kids at camp and I just asked them what's the worst thing that adults say to you when they find out about your grieving. And their number one thing was when people say, I'm sorry for your loss. That's the only thing we have. Like I've been through the death of both of my parents and I still say that. There is nothing particularly good to say, but hearing that that is their least favorite thing.

was so like, my God, we have so much work to do.

Right, that's the go-to.

So I think I'll give you one more and then I'm happy to provide extra. But the other one that's really big are people assuming while they're grieving that they want alone time and time to be with themselves and deal with what happened. What they want is somebody to knock on their door and say, do you want to go play, you know, a game out front or do you want to go for pizza or do you want to take a walk and like

They get to say no, but being forced into a alone time because it's uncomfortable for other people, that story of they need time is exactly opposite of what they really need.

think those are two really good takeaways. If there's a grieving teen in your life to not say I'm sorry for your loss and maybe open up the door and let them say yes or no if that's something that they want to engage with, like an activity or an outing or something like that. But I think what's hurtful is the assumption that this is the way it should be or shouldn't be. And the fact that

people feel the need to disconnect. Like, I don't want to, it's like a sea urchin is the image that came to mind. Like, I don't want to touch it. It's so prickly. It's like, well, there's a way to hold it with compassion and care and consideration where it works out for everybody. So that's what it sounds like. That's actually fascinating. If you have a bereaved teen in your life or a bereaved child in your life, then just lead with curiosity, which is really what we do with adults anyway, but just don't underestimate their wisdom and their ability to navigate.

the complexities of life. It sounds like in a way they do it better than us.

That is perfectly said. And I would also add, like, you don't have to get it right. None of us know what to say. And it's okay to say, don't know what to say, but I am here and I really care about you. You don't have to get the right words because there are no right words.

And is there something maybe on the other side that is particularly helpful in their opinion?

I think, you know, it's so easy to get it wrong with words because everybody responds differently. So if somebody had told me when my dad died, I was 18, you know, God has his reasons, I would punch them in the face. Right? But like that might change now. And like everybody relates to everything differently. So it's less important than like getting the exact right words that we think will land.

And I think it's more just showing up again. If it's adult to adult, like, can I babysit your kids for two hours so you can go take a nap, right? Or if it is a kid, you know, do you wanna take an hour and go to the lake and just sit and we don't have to say anything? Or do you wanna play frisbee? I think it's the being with somebody who's going through something hard and not so much what you say.

Absolutely. And in your experience with working with teenagers and younger adults, is there a moment that has stuck out to you or is there a particular story that sticks out in your mind about grief? You don't have to say names or details, just in general.

Yeah. my gosh, there's so many. One that comes to mind was a couple summers ago, there was an older teen girl at our camp and she was telling me about her, it was her little sister who died and her parents were taking her to the hospital while this little girl was dying and nobody said, sister's dying.

So for her, she didn't understand why she was there. It was boring. She didn't know what was happening. And after getting through that and the sister dying, the parents divorced, which is actually quite common. It's like a lot for a couple to stay together after something like that. And this girl had just been through the wringer, you know? And so many of the stories are like layers of grief and layers of grief.

And she was sharing her story with me and I was filming her and my mom's side took over and I was like, it feels not quite right to be, you know, like holding a camera, like am I exploiting at this point? And so I just hit pause and said, look, we can hit stop, we can be done for the day. You can decide if you wanna use this or not, you know, for our media, but I wanna give you a chance to pause. And she had tears streaming down her face and she says,

This is my one chance a year to talk about this where people ask, and I don't care if I'm crying if you don't, and I think you should keep the camera rolling. And it was such a profound marker of like, I was experiencing my own feelings and for her it was freedom. It was just freedom to sit with somebody who could hear the words and not judge her or shame her or tell her to stop or give her a hug to quiet her.

She just wanted to honor her own experience and that was a really pivotal learning for me.

Well, I'm a little bit speechless with that one because I felt like, you know, hearing it, it sounds like she had no say in the way she received the news, obviously, and the way that her parents split and probably life thereafter and the ripple effect of both losses. And finally, she has this once in a year moment where she gets to say things her way in her truth and how valuable that... Ooh, I'm getting goosebumps. Like, how valuable that...

that moment is and how freeing, like you said, that moment is. Wow. Thank you for sharing that story.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you've experienced loss yourself. You've lost both parents. So this is also personal for you in the sense that you understand grief on a personal level. So if you could just share with your audience whatever you like about both losses.

Yeah, so my dad died when I was, I was actually 20. I was a sophomore at college and I got a phone call out of seemingly nowhere that he had been hit by a drunk driver while driving home. And that was my first loss. So that was a really big one. I was really close to my dad and I had never experienced somebody being here and then not here with like such speed. And that one was

devastating, you know, there was no goodbye, there was no closure. I was in another state, I was in New Orleans and my family was back in Connecticut. And in my head, I always thought that it would be, I don't want to say easier, because that wasn't it, but somehow easier.

to have somebody die slower so that you could really say goodbye and spend time and meet, be more deliberate and intentional. And then my mom died when she was in her seventies and she had a chronic illness and it was much slower. And it was awful. Like my whole story of like, you know, if you just had time with them, because it was just a different kind of grief where.

I was grieving while she was sick, the loss of my mom, who I was really good friends with, and she had disappeared before she even disappeared. And it was just as terrible, but different terrible. And I think that sort of prepped me for experience camps where you hear a gazillion ways to die and some of them are stigmatized and some are like newsworthy, but like, you know what, at the end of the day, your person's gone.

And nothing can take that sting out. So they're not all the same, but it helped me see that when you can't be with your person physically anymore, it just sucks across the boards. So I don't know if that's a great learning, but it kind of was for the line of work that I'm in. And to just at least know because of the years of separation of when they died,

I understood the second time around that it does soften, doesn't stay that intense, which you just can't know that first time where it's just sheer intensity with no understanding of when it's gonna end. So there was at least some built in, I know that this starts to soften and the humor comes and the jokes and I can look at photos again, which was true.

Thank you for sharing that. And I'm curious, was your mom or your family open to talking about grief and loss after your father? Or was that something you felt you had to navigate completely on your own? Because 20 is technically adult, but it's also very young. So technically, you lost your father at a young age as well. And how did that play out for you?

Yeah, they were not good at it, is the short answer. My brother left for LA. He like packed up his stuff and moved. So he was barely with us. I mean, he went to the funeral and he but like he got out of Dodge. And that was really hard because the sibling is the only one who can know what you've just experienced and there was nobody to talk about it with. Probably we would have had different experiences anyway, but it was

heartbreaking to not have that person there in a way that I would have wanted, I'll say that. And then my mom, you know, was a mover and a shaker and I do and I move on and we all move on. And she refused to be the town widow in her words. And so we moved really good. We packed up the house, we moved. That's what she knew to do.

You know, she did not go fetal. She did not go down for the count. But I think in some ways it would have helped me to go down for the count. I won't speak for what she needed. I think she was used to that style. I think I needed to freak out and really go to pieces for a bit. And instead I got caught in a, I guess we're moving.

And like keep on keeping on in this style that didn't really work for me or my needs or my personality. And I ended up really not until my 30s revisiting that grief, which I did not want to, but it came at me and having to slow down and really go through the shock of what happened and the despair. So it came later for me.

I would have done it differently, I would have done it sooner, but it kind of happens how it happens. And it certainly gave me an insight, again, to doing this type of grief work, that the fact that kids can be moving through it and not pushing it off till their 40s, 50s, 60s is part of the beauty and healing for me, I think, doing this work.

Was there a particular event or something that opened up that door for you to grieve in your 30s versus prior to that?

Yeah, it was certainly not by choice. That would not have been. I had just had a baby girl. She was two. We were in a house. I was happily married. I felt some stability. And I think that almost allowed that stability for my whole life to get rocked at that moment. You know, when I look back at like why then, I think it was when things settled and I was in one place. The event that

launched it was, I don't know if you ever heard of the show Six Feet Under. So the last episode is like everybody on the show dies. You see a flash forward and it was like death after death. Sorry, big spoiler alert. Yeah.

if you haven't seen it.

I yeah.

And that was the thing, that was the grenade. It would have been something anyway, but something was the shock of it, I think, of like all these characters that I was so smitten with. And it was like, da, da, da, like it just, that was the thing. And then it was really like six months of really coming undone and then coming, you know, really building back up and going through the whole thing.

which I'm so grateful for. was truly awful and of everything I'm grateful for, that's one of the most important that it did happen.

And I find it very interesting that when we are sometimes in our most stable and still places in life when things are quote unquote like uneventful, like everything's going as it should, if you will, that is when some of us actually feel everything that has been just below the surface come up in full force, super loud. So I could absolutely see how that happened. And then the show was that visual, emotional

aspect that just kind of opened the door for you. I could absolutely see that. And it's interesting because you said how in in grief sucks and experience camp how pop culture helps teens unearth the grief and give them sometimes a word, sometimes a point of reference to talk about it. So how movies could just be that for us. And in all fairness, you you say that unfortunately you didn't have that support or the dynamics back then where the whole keep calm and carry on.

that was more the norm because in all fairness, these conversations are starting to come up to the surface now, I would say like since 2020-ish time. It's not that they were never happening, it's that they're going more public and entering the public discourse, if you will, a little bit more open recently. So a lot of people who've grieved, you know, decades ago are just now starting to have these conversations because they're starting to enter our public discourse.

I think that is exactly right. You know, I give so much credit to my mom for keeping it going and moving forward. And you know, if it was too rushed, she still built a beautiful life for herself and remarried and found somebody, you know, dad in my life who was like warm and wonderful, very different. And...

You know, there is a model there too, but you're right, it's changed so much. we get thousands of comments on our social media from adults saying, was this camp when I was a kid? You know, these things to your point, just they weren't around. We didn't have the same language. We weren't opening these discussions. So that's totally fair too, is there was no context for her at that time.

to like get deep and let's like really share and reveal our feelings around this.

And we have to be fair to everybody in the sense that not everybody grieves the same. And I would imagine that, for example, in her shoes now she's a single mom, not by choice. Or anything. She has to keep calm and carry on. is exactly what she had to do. she, I'm sure, absolutely did her best, it sounds like. And you're also a filmmaker, a storyteller, a journalist, and you push back on certain narratives. It's part of the thread that has gone through.

all of the work you've done and your current work. So talk to us about what drives that? Where does that come from and how does that relate to your current work with grief?

So I seem to have an obsession with the idea of people being able to tune in to their own inner wisdom and push back against society telling them that there's a right way to be. And I didn't know that was the theme until I built a website and put all my projects in one website. I really thought they were all different. There was one about being a single woman.

There was one about being a working mom. I knew I cared about women's issues, but the thread was not apparent to me until that moment of seeing all the projects and being like, holy crap, like I seem to have a real drive here. It's still the part of me that's most fascinated by people of like, how did you find your story and how did you end up here and what choices did you make intentionally and what were unintentional stories?

that led you here. I love all of that. And so the project I'm making now is called Freeway Ride, and it hasn't launched yet, but it's really the most direct of what I'm saying of all my media projects, where it is a digital playground that's helping people rediscover and tune into their intuition or their inner compass. And so I wanted to demystify

intuition as this thing that's out there, you know, that we have to figure out how to get to and to bring back in a playful way this notion that we were born with it and nobody can take it from you. We've just learned to not listen to it. So I'm very excited about that. And you've been one of the beautiful souls who shared your story.

about hunches and intuition. And I think the more we talk about it, the more we really normalize that is for all of us.

And it was such an honor to be a part of that because in my own grief journey, these conversations helped me unlock the wisdom that has been building over time or just underneath a sense of awareness that maybe I didn't have before. And because of these conversations about how do we follow our intuition? How do we live instead of a should life, the life that we're meant to live? And in a way, I believe grief helps unlock that if you lean into it. So I love that you're doing this.

amazing project and I love the question that you ask specific to unlock these conversations. So if you don't mind sharing that question, why that question and any insights that have come out without obviously sharing too much because people have to stay tuned, but any insights that stick out to you based on the conversations you've had to date.

Yeah, it's so happy. think too, like having spent four years of hearing kids talk about their grieving, like family death stories, like I think I really was also craving lightness and humor and something to counter balance that. The question is to ask people, share with me.

a hunch story when you had a hunch and it didn't make sense. It wasn't logical, but you followed it and it impacted your life somehow. And I've just been filming people over Zoom and like gathering these stories. And the insight for me is that one, the stories are so fun. They're just so uplifting, whether it's like, and then I moved to Germany or I bought a school bus and I live there or just these like very

fabulous stories, even when they're small, like tiny stories. Not all of them are big drama. But the first hit of joy is in them telling the story and just how fun the stories are. But the second hit comes from almost their remembering as they're telling it that they do have this inner compass. And no surprise to anyone in the uncertain times we're in where it's so rocky and turbulent.

There's something about remembering that there's something bigger than us, that there's something maybe guiding us, or there's something that is even just inside of us that is helping us and we're not alone. And watching them remember that as they're telling the story is like the second hit of goodness.

Absolutely. And let me ask you, let me turn the question on you, if you will, have you felt an intuitive hit or some kind of knowing that you've pursued that changed your life?

I mean a million. Yeah, okay. So one is this project. I didn't plan it. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know the name. wasn't picturing it. There's some projects like Grief Sucks where my partner, Jesse and I like really crafted it out and thought about it and talked to teens and it was sculpted and we spent months really planning. And this project, Freeway Ride, just like dropped in.

you know, like images started dropping in. I mean, that just isn't mine. Some of it's mine, you know, and I have to execute and I have to make it work. But it was, it's so clear to me that there is some need collectively and I'm seeing more people talking about intuition. It's becoming more mainstream. And so I think this is just one angle in and I have been very helped along the way for sure.

love that and I'm a huge fan of following our intuition. It knows something that maybe we don't and when we lean into life's question marks, it's why not? Our trained mind, our conditioned mind always talks us or tends to talk us out of things that are not clear or planned. But I find so much of life's magic is unlocked when we just follow that pocket of sunshine that lights us up in the moment, just because.

something that you're curious about just because. And that just because there's actually so much more there when we lean into it. So I love that you created this and I'm grateful that I got to be a part of it. I'm excited to see how it turns out. And if you're listening or watching and you've felt something that just kind of pulls you and you don't necessarily have the full picture as to why.

Just do it for the plot twist. Like, why not? You just do what happens and see where it leads you.

I love what you just said. Like, what if our answer when people said to us, why are you doing that with like questioning or challenging? What if you're like, just because? Right? And like that was enough.

Yeah, and actually it reminds me when I started the podcast, I had a presentation and somebody came up to me. This was in an academic setting. So I'm guessing their more analytical mind was the one asking the question. said, what makes you qualified to have a podcast? Because they didn't understand like I didn't go to school for it. This is not something I studied or anything. And I said, because I felt like it, like it's something I wanted to do. I think that's good enough, right? Like I felt like you.

I was curious enough to pursue it and look at all these wonderful conversations that have come out of it. So we don't need this resume and all this stuff to be able to follow our passion and our curiosity more than anything, our intuition.

And thank God you did, like look at all the lives that you changed by doing this, including your own, right? And just because...

Thank you so much. Yeah. And would you say that teams are better at getting in touch with their intuition than adults? Is that a thing or is it pretty even across No.

I would say little kids are really in tune. You little kids will walk in the room and feel the energy immediately and they don't question it, you know? And then that thing happens where if they walk in a room and like their parents are fighting, the parents will like gaslight them and be like, no, no, no, everything's fine. But like they are the most in touch because it hasn't been trained out of them quite yet. The older we get, I think the worse it gets for many of us.

Absolutely. And what questions do you wish more people would ask about grief or intuition?

Ooh, so I'll separate them. About grief would be just asking, how do I show up for someone? That simple, like start the conversation. Don't feel like you have to be an expert or earn your way into that. Like we're all gonna go through it. So how can I show up for someone and do one thing? Just commit to doing one thing.

We have, I will say, on experience camps, we have a ton of free resources. If you're like, don't know the one thing, we have a gazillion one things. So that's a good starter place. And in terms of intuition, I think it's really, the question would be like, how do I know it's intuition? That's the most common question. How do I know it's intuition versus thought versus thinking?

Good question, yes.

And the answer I give for the distinction is when it's intuition, it kind of comes quickly and quietly without drama. It's like a natural, it just comes floating in. If it sounds like runaway screaming or enter the lottery right now exclamation, if it has high drama, that's not actually your intuition. It's much quieter.

It's like a gentle knowing. And sometimes I feel like it's so quiet that we dismiss it. It's easier to dismiss than the loud like, like you said, like, enter the lotto now. that kind of, it's so fascinating. And what do you want grieving teens and those who love them to hear most from you?

I think the most important thing is just you're not alone. It can so feel like you are, or again, like you're the weird one or the strange one. There are millions and millions and you really, like it can feel hard to find those people who support you in the right way, but I promise they're out there. We're doing our part to help. And sometimes it's surprising who the show upers are. And...

You will know. think it's like another intuition thing of you will know who the safe person is, where it feels right to share your story, but share your story. Whether, you know, if you're still waiting for the right person, journal it, but put your feelings somewhere, express them. There's so many ways now with art, with journaling, with talking, with calling a friend. Don't keep it inside you. Let others hold it with you.

That's beautiful advice actually and that's for all across the board adults and teens and children for all of us. Don't keep it inside. I agree with that. you you're such a wealth of information and there's so many offerings here. So how can somebody get a hold of you in all of them? So Experience Camp and Grief Sucks and Freeway Ride, like all these things. And if they wanted to get in touch with you personally, what's the best way for each venue?

Yeah, so my personal website is probably the easiest way for like all the projects. So that's just michellecove.com and Freeway Ride is baked into there right now. It hasn't launched yet. But if you want to sign up for more information, you can do it on that site, experiencecamps.org and griefsucks.com. And you can find me through those sites as well.

And of course, those will be in the show notes. You're doing amazing work for the world because I always believe that the biggest change comes with these one-on-one interactions and these conversations. They just have such beautiful ripple effects. So you're doing such beautiful and powerful work in each of your offerings. And I love the way that you offer your curiosity and your intuition, your wisdom and your gifts to the world. I really do. appreciate it. And I'm grateful that we connected.

And before we end, is there something that you would like to include in this conversation that I haven't touched on and it could be about anything?

No, just thank you. Thank you for being one of the people making spaces for these conversations. It's what allows us all to connect and find each other. So I appreciate you.

Thank you. It's mutual. I am really appreciative as well. And I guess like as a final question, what would Michelle today say to Michelle after your father's passing?

Hmm.

I think I did go back and talk to her a lot when I was in my 30s. We had many, conversations. what I would tell her is there is this big, beautiful life ahead of you. There are adventures and love stories, and this is not the end. There is sadness here, and feel the sadness, and I got you. But just wait. Just wait to see what's coming.

Absolutely. Michelle, it has been an absolute honor. Thank you so much for your time, for your wisdom, for your work, and for being you.

Thank you so much.

for being you and always remember you are not alone.