Beyond Platitudes: Erin Blechman Talks Candidly About Suicide Loss and Supporting Grievers

In this deeply moving episode, grief educator Erin Blechman opens up about her profound journey through loss after the death of her son, Max. Erin invites us into her experience of navigating the unique pain of suicide loss, sharing stories of Max’s life, his struggles, and the love that continues to shape her every day. She candidly explores the complexities of grief, the strength it takes to push past well-meaning but hurtful platitudes, and the necessity of compassion when facing tragedy. Erin discusses how her own healing journey has inspired her to support other bereaved parents, offering a space for community and mutual understanding. Through her work and writing, she brings to light the ongoing dance between hope and sorrow, illustrating how shared experiences and genuine presence can make a lasting impact on the path to healing. This episode is a heartfelt conversation on the power of community, the importance of authentic support, and the resilience that stems from love and loss.

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Click here to watch on YouTube
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Takeaways:

• Grief is a lifelong journey that evolves over time and varies for everyone.
• It's essential to sit with someone in their grief rather than trying to fix it.
• Mental illness can manifest in various ways, often misunderstood by society.
• Community support plays a crucial role in the healing process.
• Compassion and empathy are vital when supporting bereaved parents.
• Platitudes can be more hurtful than helpful during times of loss.
• Understanding the nuances of depression is key to providing support.
• Faith can be a source of comfort but can also lead to hurtful comments.
• Sharing stories of loved ones helps keep their memory alive.
• Healing involves recognizing and processing regret in our actions.  
• Being present is more important than offering solutions.
• Hope can be elusive after a significant loss.
• Grieving parents often feel isolated in their pain.
• Education about grief can empower those who are grieving.
• Support groups provide validation and understanding.

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Join THE COMMUNITY | A virtual space where we can navigate grief, together.
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Connect with Erin Blechman:

• erinblechman.com
• @erin.blechman
• Facebook

Connect with Nina Rodriguez:

• @griefandlight
• griefandlight.com
• 1:1 Grief Support

Disclaimer: griefandlight.com/safetyanddisclaimers

Chapters

• 0:00 Preview & Intro Song
• 1:00 Meet Erin Blechman
• 4:23 Navigating Grief After Loss
• 8:44 Max: A Life of Compassion and Struggle
• 15:47 Navigating Mental Health Challenges
• 19:15 Just Sit with Him, Don't Fix
• 25:18 Faith, Platitudes, and Grief
• 35:38 Worry and Hope have been replaced with Sorrow and Despair
• 40:45 Reconciling Faith with Losing Max to Suicide
• 44:54 The healing power of support groups
• 48:42 Sam and Sibling Loss
• 51:28 Grief education, and providing grief support for grievers
• 57:47 Final Thoughts - Grief is best expressed in community
• 59:48 Final Question

Transcript

griefandlight (00:00.056)
Part of the reason why his death was so shocking to me was because I really didn't expect it. Even though he struggled for so many years with mental illness, and even though he was hospitalized numerous times for suicide ideation, and we always knew that that could be his outcome, I really didn't think it was going to be. As a person of faith, I prayed for him every day for eight years. He was on prayer lists for multiple people. We had prayer gatherings in our home.

I remember walking through my neighborhood and feeling like the Lord said to me, he's going to be okay. So of course I thought that meant he was going to be okay here. And so when he died, I thought this isn't the way the story was supposed to end. You just lost your loved one. Now what? Welcome to the Grief in Life podcast where we explore this new reality through grief colored lenses. Openly, authentically, I'm your host, Nina Rodriguez.

Let's get started. How can we navigate the layers of grief following a stigmatized loss? How can we better support bereaved parents who lost a child to suicide? Today's guest is a speaker, grief educator, and the author of My Unexpected Journey Reflections After Losing My Son to Suicide, which chronicles the 18 months following the devastating loss of her beloved son Max after his long battle with mental illness.

Erin Bleckman offers grief support to bereaved parents through online groups and community talks that seek to build a greater understanding of mental illness, suicide, loss, and grief. And I promise you this will be a very important conversation that I know will help many. So I invite you to share it with somebody who may need to hear these words. And with that said, I would like to give a very warm welcome to Erin. Erin, welcome to the Greif and Like podcast. thank you so much, Nina. I'm really thrilled to be here. Likewise.

I have your stunning book here and I mean it, it really is stunning. You softened a lot of these harsh experiences, a very painful lived reality with the beautiful artwork in your book, which shout out to your friend, I believe, who did all the beautiful cover art. And before we get started, I'd like to ask you, how is your heart today? what a question. You know, I just...

griefandlight (02:23.182)
started a new grief group last night with a group of bereaved moms. And I'm always a little tender, right, around this time, because leading up to it, I hear all their stories. And then after the sessions, and we share and talk about our kids that we lost, it's always just, my heart is always just a little more tender, because most of those stories hit really close to home. You know, I lost a beloved son at the age of 25.

So I attract a lot of moms who lose, who have lost sons. And because I lost Max to suicide, I attract moms who have lost sons or daughters to suicide or some other kind of tragic and traumatic way. I'm really honored to be able to walk alongside them and have them share their stories with me. But as you can imagine, it's, you know, sometimes they're, they just hit.

a little closer to home than others. And that brings back a lot of memories. And as I said, makes my heart a little more tender. Well, tender hearts are always welcome here. And thank you for expressing that. I know it could be very difficult, especially when we see so much of ourselves in their stories. And I'm curious, how do you create that emotional separation, if you will, that space between the person that wants to help

another grieving parent and then your own experience or do you create space between that? When someone joins one of my grief groups before that call where I hear their story, they learn about mine. And so they're aware of some of the similarities and some of the overlap. And, you know, it's really an opportunity for me to empathize with them because I, in a lot of cases, I understand what they're going through.

And in a lot of cases, I'm a little further out from my loss than they are. And so I think what I try to do is I try to give them a little bit of hope, you know, and talk about the fact that, you know, yes, we will grieve the loss of our children for the rest of our lives, but hopefully over time that grief gets easier to carry. And our capacity for other things gets larger. So, you know, I think that's how I

griefandlight (04:43.694)
create the space without brightsiding, without pointing out the silver lining, because there's no silver lining when you lose a child, never. And so I just try to walk alongside them in a compassionate way and try to give them some hope that someday they will feel a little bit better than they'd feel right now. Also recognizing where they are, recognizing

you know, whether they're four months, nine months, two years out from the loss of their child and seeing them where they are and acknowledging their pain, witnessing their grief and just sitting with them in it. So I think that's one of the things that our culture is particularly bad at is sitting with people in their grief.

And so it's so funny because I find myself doing that. Like I'll think, you know, like a platitude will pop into my head or, you know, a blessing will come to mind. And that's not helpful. When someone is in the early days of deep grief, there is, there's nothing you can say that's going to make it any better. It's going to cheer them up. That's going to somehow rationalize or explain what's happened. So we just have to sit with people.

just sit with them and love them and be there for them. And I try to do that. Thank you for better than others. Right. We're not perfect. And sometimes even we get it wrong ourselves, even having experienced all of this. But that's part of it. It's having these conversations and becoming more grief informed as time goes by. So hopefully our lack of information as a society doesn't hurt somebody in deep, deep grief and deep, loss like what you experienced. And you outline

All of that in your book, it's almost the first, about two years of, little under two years of your lived experience, which, gosh, if that is not like the most raw and tender and just real time in our lives when we are just coming undone. And I saw so much of, you gave words to the experience. I saw so much of like what my mother went through when we lost my brother Joseph. Our families were similar in composition in that it was two kids and

griefandlight (07:02.934)
you know, the parents, so we're not a huge family that losses just reverberates throughout everything we do so much. So I saw a lot of that. And I also saw a mother loving her son fiercely in life and death. saw a woman reconciling her faith with the lived reality that your son just died by suicide. I saw a wife trying to do her best to honor her husband's feeling while like

you know, being so tender in her own grief and a mother who didn't want her other son, Sam, to feel neglected. I saw all of that in the book. So thank you for showcasing your experience and also giving us a glimpse of who Max was, a beautiful brown eyed, sweet, caring, loving boy that he is and in a way continues to be in spirit. So thank you for that. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. That was, that was really beautiful. Thank you for all that. Those were all the things I tried to do.

And so to hear you express that really means a lot to me. I appreciate it. And that's the part that a lot of people don't see because we are met with so many platitudes, sometimes well intended. talk to us about, I made some notes here and actually let me go to those notes because there were so many different aspects of grief that were touched on and each one is an entry, like a journal entry.

But within the journal entries, the image that kept popping into my mind is like, you take a bite of a very decadent chocolate, like one small bite says so much. So it was like these bite-sized, very rich paragraphs that I really loved. So talk to us about who Max was, the beautiful person, and then the things that he struggled with. Let's start there. OK. Well, it was obvious from a very young age that he was very tender-hearted.

And it was also obvious that he was intelligent and a little bit eccentric. And that was part of what made him so unique and so special and so beautiful. And as a little boy, he was very sensitive. And that expressed itself in his reactions to things. And his reactions were always a little bit bigger, a little more magnified, and just different than the rest of ours.

griefandlight (09:22.08)
And so, you know, looking back, I can see that as sort of the beginning of his struggle with mental health issues, the beginning of his depression. But he was just, he started talking in sentences at 15 months. And so it was just amazing to get a glimpse into his young little mind. And he said the funniest things, we had the best conversations. And you know, he remained very verbal his whole life.

He was also very creative as he got older that expressed itself in he played the drums. He taught himself to play the banjo. He wrote poetry, short stories. He did stand up comedy. you know that I remember the first time my husband and I went to see him do his stand up routine. We were absolutely nervous, Rick. And to see him get up there with such confidence and poise.

Knowing about his personal struggles was really pretty inspiring and amazing. So he was just, he was very compassionate as well. You know, he, he felt things deeply. And I think that that was really part of his difficulty. You know, he couldn't filter things out. He couldn't hold things at arm's length, the bad stuff that happens in the world. And so he let it all in.

And I think ultimately that just proved to be too much for him. But we have story after story of times where he demonstrated compassion to perfect strangers. know, there was one time he took a woman into a store to buy diapers for her baby. And then he walked back out and watched her walk back in and return it for cash. And he could have been jaded, he could have been cynical, but he wasn't. Another time he took a homeless man to breakfast.

and allowed the homeless man to order so much food that he didn't have enough money in his account to buy himself his own breakfast. just incredibly compassionate. There was another time, and we just found this out within the last year or so, he was out late on a weekend with his cousin and his best friend, and they came across a man who was passed out. And Max walked over to the man and woke him up.

griefandlight (11:41.258)
offered to escort him home. And apparently the entire way home, this man berated Max. And my nephew was like, I would have left him on the street. But Max saw him to his door. And that was just kind of who he was. He was very caring and compassionate, sensitive, tender-hearted, creative, intelligent, just sweet. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. And that definitely comes through in the book. He seems to have such a

depth of social justice, like what's unjust in the world and not just feeling it but wanting to do something about it. And I feel like, you know, I'd love those kinds of people. So it made me even hurt more that he's no longer physically with us because I'm like, gosh, the world could use so many more Max's, you know, like life would be so much different if, you know, that type of person, that type of spirit like Max, there was more of those around with us. So I love that. And I love that story.

And especially with the gentleman or the person berating him, not that part, but the fact that he saw past that, the fact that he saw past this immediate outburst of whatever was happening and he was more concerned with this person's safety than anything else. So what a beautiful spirit. Thank you for sharing that. You know, he was also very Starkey. He had a and I have since met a lot of people.

who have loved ones or maybe they themselves are very tenderhearted like that. And a lot of times that type of person sort of encases themselves in sarcasm and cynicism. And Max could do that. was very snarky and had at times a very biting or cutting sense of humor. you know, it wasn't like he was this passive, docile, quiet guy. know, he had...

He had a lot of that depth underneath, but sometimes it came out in sarcasm, cynicism, that kind of thing. And there's this epic photo of him. I think it was like at a protest where it's just like this action shot of him in there. I like that you said there's this side of him that's very like traditional and like your typical, very well put together type of family guy, that kind of stereotype. And then there's this other side that was just like,

griefandlight (13:59.052)
you know, was such a fighter for what he believed in. And there's this awesome picture that I saw in your book where he, I think it's the one that his brother got tattooed on, you when you went to get the tattoos in his honor. And I just thought that was so cool because you could see that dichotomy, like those different facets to who he was. It was very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. When Sam decided that that was going to be his tattoo, know, Bill and I were like, how in the world is that new artist going to...

recreate that and it's just a beautiful rendition, it really is. It was and to my understanding, was, know, tattoos are a common way that a lot of grievers express their love for their person because it's something we can, it's a physical representation of something that was meaningful and tied to that person. And so I saw that everybody, you, your husband and his brother, Sam got tattoos. And it was through the same artist that Max had, correct?

but he had hired, but I loved that. I think he had 18, 19 tattoos. And so that was really special to go to his tattoo artist, to go to that tattoo parlor and get our tattoos, you because everybody there knew him. I remember we had meeting for conversations with the receptionist with a couple of the other tattoo artists. So that was, yeah, that was really special to actually go to that place where he had spent a lot of time getting these.

intricate detailed tattoos that he had. love that they also knew him. So maybe they even shared stories as they were, you know, tattooing the art on each person. would imagine that was so touching in a way. Yeah. Yeah. It was really meaningful. really amazing. So Max, unfortunately also struggled with mental health issues from a young age that eventually even evolved into like epilepsy, I believe.

So talk to us about how this became something that he had to work through throughout his life. Well, as I mentioned earlier, looking back upon even his young life, I could see signs that that sensitivity was going to be an issue at some point. But then when he was in high school, he started to have some physical problems, mostly gastrointestinal issues. And so we took him to every doctor and specialist. had an abundance of tests.

griefandlight (16:25.038)
couldn't find anything wrong with him. And in retrospect, that was the beginning of his depression and anxiety. He experienced some bullying in high school, and I just think he internalized all of that and it came out in physical ways. Then when he went away to college, it was right before his 19th birthday, he had his first episode of suicide ideation where he actually called 911 on himself to admit himself into the hospital.

He had that awareness to do something about it. Yeah, yeah. He had a plan in his head. And so he ended up in the hospital. We ended up withdrawing him from college and bringing him home. And that was the beginning of the really serious depressive episodes that he sort of cycled through for the rest of his life. And then it was a year later that he just out of the blue started to have seizures.

And he was diagnosed with epilepsy at almost 20. So he was 19, about to turn 20. And that was a devastating blow to him because he lost his license. I don't know if it's the same in every state, but in the state of Pennsylvania, you have to be seizure free for six months. And it took him probably, that was he was 20, it probably took him three, three and a half years to get his license back.

because he would be on a trajectory where the medication would seem to control the seizure and then he'd have one out of the blue and it would just reset the clock. And so that was a very serious blow to his esteem and his confidence and his independence, frankly, because for a young man not to be able to drive, it was a real blow.

Yeah, he just struggled with both of those really brain illnesses from that point forward. He was hospitalized, I would say, four or five, six times for suicide ideation. we were not sans of the local psychiatric hospital. We thought that when he went there that they should be doing things to actively help him.

griefandlight (18:37.134)
And it was really just a place to keep him safe. And so he'd be there for, you know, three, four, five days maybe, and then he would just be released back to real life, back to, you know, regular life. There was no, there was no step down. He had an outpatient program that he could go to, but it was, you know, there's just so much we need to do in this country as it relates to mental health care. It's really sorely lacking. And...

I just, think there's, we have to do better. We really do. Absolutely. And having these conversations to create awareness, especially from firsthand experience is key. There was one part that stood up to me because it's something that my parents also were told when my brother was struggling with his own depression as a teenager, young adult. And that's to not fix him, but sit with him and sit with his

whenever he's having, let's say, depressive episode, just sit with him, just be with him. So could you shed some light on that and what that meant for you? And I know that you expressed some perhaps regret as to how maybe you would have handled it differently knowing what you know today. Yeah, yeah. Well, that was so difficult, you know, to see my boy struggling, to see him unable to get out of bed. And...

For most of the years that he struggled with both his epilepsy and depression, he didn't live with us. He lived on his own with roommates or friends in the city. But a lot of times when he was in crisis, he would come home. And so to see him in those depressive episodes was so incredibly difficult. And so a lot of times I would drag him out of bed. I talk about this in my book. I remember one time dragging him around Target.

thinking it was gonna help, you know. And one of his therapists did tell Bill and I, you know, he doesn't need you to pull him out of the pit, he needs you to get in the pit with him. And I really couldn't do it. And I viewed his depression and his epilepsy sort of as the enemy. And so all I wanted to do was for them to go away. All I wanted was for him to get better. I think that he probably felt like I didn't.

griefandlight (20:58.762)
see him, that I didn't understand him. And that was a part of him. And I do regret that. So that is one of the things that I talk to friends about who have children who struggle with depression is sitting with them, climbing in bed with them if necessary, not trying to fix them. It's kind of like grief, right? When we're grieving, we don't want somebody to try to pull us out of grief because it doesn't work.

It doesn't help. And so the same thing is true of someone when they're having a depressive episode. It's much more caring and beneficial to actually try to get in there with them, just sit with them. And that was incredibly hard for me to do. And that is a regret that I have. Thank you for that. And I believe in giving ourselves grace because we didn't know what we didn't know. And maybe cognitively we could have been told

this is how it works, this is what you should do, da da da da, but it's not until you come through this experience that often you say, wow, okay, now I really understand what that meant back then. So I honor your experience and your openness and also the fact that I feel like if maybe we had a do-over, things would be so different, you know, with the understanding that we have now, but unfortunately that's just not, that's not an option. So it's good to share these experiences. if you're somebody,

who is experiencing this with your own child, son, daughter, or with yourself or somebody in your family, it is much more powerful to sit with them in their reality, knowing that this, in a way, this too shall pass, this moment shall pass. But instead of correcting, there is no fixing this in that sense, in that traditional sense, it's not a cut on your finger. So, you know, just active presence, embodied presence does a lot more healing than trying to fix it, whatever that means. Yeah, yeah.

know, one of the things that I talk about in my book and I talk about pretty openly with people, you know, in my group, so when I do my talks is the summer after he passed, myself fell into a depressive episode. I couldn't get out of bed and I completely lacked that motivation because the opposite of depression is not happiness, it's motivation. And so I completely lacked that motivation to get out of bed. And so I, you know, that didn't last.

griefandlight (23:20.866)
very long, it was probably less than six months that I experienced that off and on. But that gave me just a little glimpse into what he experienced day in and day out, year in and year out. And that gave me a greater understanding, but also created more regret because I realized, I remember when my husband would come to the door of our bedroom and say, are you getting up?

And I finally started to say to him, my therapist said I can stay in bed. Doctors orders, I can stay. But I remember kind of that, like the resentment that I would feel when he would do that. so I'm sure Max felt that. like I said, it's just a regret. And so I really try to talk openly because depression is so misunderstood.

People use the word depressed in a variety of ways and it's not always clinical depression. It's not always what Max struggled with. A lot of times people say they're depressed when they're just feeling blue or having a bad day. I feel like that in a lot of cases, the terminology is it's flawed. I think maybe we need to come up with some better terms, some better descriptions. Definitely. You mentioned that.

a times in your book as well, that distinction that, look, this is bigger than just snap out of it or be grateful or express some gratitude or whatever. It's beyond that. It's bigger than that. And the sooner that we accept that for what it is and the sooner we see the person for what they're facing in their life, the better that we will be able to deal with it ourselves and be of service to that person or just navigate it more accurately, if you will.

Like you said, it's also very similar to the grief experience. So you talk a lot about the platitudes and I love the perspective that you put in the book because of your faith, the role that faith played and plays in your life. So the platitudes had a religious tone to them. And other times it's just the generic boilerplate platitudes that so many of us receive. But I can appreciate how

griefandlight (25:41.492)
even within the context of more traditional established support systems like our church or our religion, there can be some damage done on the receiving end of that when we are not met in our lived experience of grief. So talk to our listeners about the platitudes and what you received versus what you maybe wish you would have received or what worked versus what was hurtful. Yeah.

Well, we were part of the, we still are part of the faith community here in Pittsburgh. And that our faith community was so helpful and so supportive in one regard. So I remember there were, was probably within a couple of hours that we had gotten the news about Max that our pastors showed up at our house. And I remember one of them said, people are going to want to come. People, your friends and your family, they're going to want to come and be with you.

They're gonna wanna bring food. They're gonna wanna sit with you. They're gonna wanna share stories. And he said, I recommend you let them. And Bill and I, I didn't know that that was customary. I didn't know that that's what people did when you lost someone. I hadn't really lost anyone other than grandparents that were elderly and had lived their lives. And so that was so helpful because I would say for probably the first, I don't know, three, four days,

our house was literally full of people. And that was kind of what got me out of bed. That was what made me eat, frankly. I don't know if I would have done either of those things if those people hadn't been there. So in that regard, the council of our faith community was very helpful. The other thing that they told us is, because I talk about in my book, I was very angry with God about Max's passing, and I can get into that later, but they said,

God is bigger than anything you can throw at him. He's bigger than your doubts. He's bigger than your anger. He's bigger than anything. So if you cry out to God, yell at God, get angry with God, he can take it. So those were two pieces of advice that we got from our faith community that was incredibly helpful for us. Now, on the other hand, there were people within that faith community or just friends, neighbors who used faith to try to

griefandlight (28:09.43)
rationalize, explain, minimize, spiritualize our loss. And I didn't understand my reaction at the time, but those platitudes were so hurtful. So as an example, there was one neighbor who actually gave me a little plaque. I think it was within the week that Max had died. And it said something to the effect of, it's not about learning to avoid the storm, it's about learning to dance in the rain.

where it's not about avoiding the storm, it's about dancing in the rain. And I opened it and I honestly wanted to throw it back in her head. It just hit me. So I thought, ugh, this is your response to my son dying? And then there's the everything happens for a reason that drives me crazy. He's in a better place, he's no longer suffering. Just all of those things that

people mean well. They have good intentions, but at their core, they minimize the loss that we've experienced. And that is just so hurtful for a grieving person is for someone to think that they can say anything that's going to make you go, you know what? You're right. He is in a better place. Or one that we heard, well, at least you had him for 25 years.

I was like, well, I want them for 25 or 50 more. it's just those, all of those kind of trite phrases, platitudes, they just really need to be stricken from our vocabulary because they're, now what I will say is I can say some of those things now, and I could even say this maybe a year out. thank God he's no longer suffering. He struggled so much in this life.

And thank God he's no longer struggling. But nobody else can say that to me. As a grieving mom, I had to come to that decision, that perception, that perspective on my own. And for anybody else to try to convince me of that or force that upon me is just incredibly hurtful. So, yeah.

griefandlight (30:26.998)
Yeah, and I'm sorry you received those. I remember my mom and sometimes to this day we'll still get some of these comments and I cannot not react. Like I just think it's so triggering to me because I'm like, gosh, you really don't know what you're talking about. And I remember at the memorial, there was this gentleman, we were trying to rush out because it was past the hour that we were supposed to be there. And there's this gentleman that worked there and he says, please don't rush, take your time because this is the last time you're going to see

him in physical form, et cetera, et And he just looked like he meant that from the heart. So we started talking to him. We found out later that he had lost his own son. And so my father asks him, what advice do you have? He turns around, he puts his hand on my dad's shoulder and he says, people will say the darnedest things. Just put your hand on their shoulder and say, you have no idea what you're talking about and just walk away. Because you will hear just the

craziest thing, sometimes well-intended usually. And other times it's what I now know to be a fear-induced unwillingness to put yourself in that position even for a second, right? So for example, when somebody says, gosh, I can't imagine, Erin, what you went through. Well, yes, you can. We all have imagination. You literally can. You don't want to. That's a different story.

So I no longer say, my gosh, I can't imagine. No, it's like, let me take a second and think about what this person might be going through, knowing it's not even going to come close, but at least make the effort. And instead of correcting or trying to get her to, or him to see the silver lining or the perfect scripture, whatever it is, just be present. And I think in one chapter you said, show up and shut up. But at the end of the day, it's so true because like you said, the griever,

has to lead in that experience. The griever is the one that can say a year later, five, 10, 20 years later, you know what, maybe he is in a better place, but that came after the time and the loss and some personal realization, not something that was imposed onto the griever. So I think that's a very, very important point of nuance and distinction. Yeah, yeah. I can't imagine that's another one that drives me crazy because

griefandlight (32:47.384)
You know, after Max passed away, Bill and I became the walking example of every parent's worst nightmare. Every parent fears losing a child. And so then we became that example to people. And I remember there was a woman, she came to my house and you know, Max died right in the thick of COVID. It was right in the midst of the isolation and the quarantine and all that. And I remember she stood in my kitchen and she said, it was COVID, right? Like it was COVID. And you know,

At the time, I said, well, you know, that was a factor, but she was hanging on to that, that, you know, my son died because of COVID and that that would then not happen to her. That would not happen to one of her children because eventually COVID was going to be over. And even if her child had struggles with mental health issues, once that factor was off the table, then her child would be safe. And, you know, that

That again is so hurtful. To reduce Max's life to one single factor, suicide is the result of a very complex set of factors. It's not just one. And so to reduce his life to just that one moment, that one issue was...

Just wrong. was shit. was just... And I could see the fear in her eyes. I could see that she was trying to come up with some reason why what happened to us could not happen to her. And I think that's a really common response for parents because nobody wants to walk in our shoes. Nobody wants to imagine walking in our shoes. Nobody certainly wants to have to walk in our shoes. So, yeah. We just have to be better at...

being humans with each other during the difficult moments in life, especially these types of moments. And in what you just named, that's my worst nightmare. I want to get as far away from that as possible. And therefore, what did you do? So I make sure that I, that never happens to me. And like what factors played in your life and in your experience. So that never happens to me. It's an unfortunate reality. And this is important to talk about it because if you have a loved one or a friend or colleague who lost somebody to stigmatize the type of loss, please, please, please think of the human.

griefandlight (35:08.638)
one who passed, so they weren't a suicide. No, they were a person who died by suicide. And in my case, for example, my brother struggled with addiction and ultimately that took his life, right? And so I remember a former coworker, said, well, now you don't have to worry. What? The worry, and you have a beautiful chapter in this. Let me see if I have the quote.

but the worry is replaced with this deep sorrow. doesn't worry and hope have been replaced with sorrow and despair. That's what you wrote. And if you don't mind, can I read that paragraph? Would you be okay with that? Okay. So there's this, I don't have the page number, but it's in the book. It says, as difficult as that worry was to live with, living with his death is even harder. While he was alive, there was hope. Hope that he would eventually get better. Hope that he would continue to

take better care of himself and hope for a better future. Now, worry and hope have been replaced with sorrow and despair. I have to cling to the assurance that he is in heaven with Jesus, otherwise I simply couldn't survive." So that to me encapsulates this thing that yes, the family was worried and at the same time, this is also equally as horrible and that stress is not really going to go away. So maybe give your take on that aspect of it, please.

Yeah. Well, you're trading one set of problems for another, right? You're trading that worry with the despair and the intense grief of losing someone you love so much. You know, it's just really interesting that, and maybe this is the time to share, but part of the reason why his death was so shocking to me was because I really didn't expect it.

Even though he struggled for so many years with mental illness, and even though he was hospitalized, knew were his times for suicide ideation, and we always knew that that could be his outcome, I really didn't think it was going to be. And, you know, as a person of faith, I prayed for him every day for eight years. He was on prayer lists for multiple people. We had prayer gatherings at our home. I remember walking through my neighborhood

griefandlight (37:30.854)
and feeling like the Lord said to me, he's gonna be okay. So of course I thought that meant he was gonna be okay here. And so when he died, I thought this isn't the way the story was supposed to end. And so I was just completely blindsided by it. And I think that all that hope that I clung to when he was still alive, all those things that you just read about, that just, that disappeared.

in an instant, all that hope was gone. And I really struggled with trying to regain that hope for, you know, I remember talking to Sarah Nelson, my graphic designer and illustrator, and, you know, we started working on the book probably six months after Max passed, and it honestly just evolved. At no point did I sit down and say, I'm gonna write a book.

I just was journaling and then I was putting some of those journal entries out on social media and getting really positive feedback. That's where the idea of the book came from, I think. think somebody said, you should write a book. And I thought, maybe I will. And then Sarah and I started working together. And that's when she had the idea to have the bird be the theme for the book because I kept seeing the same bird in the days and weeks following his death.

So we were working on that project again from about six months out. And I remember her saying to me, we have to figure out what the end date is. We have to figure out where the book is going to end. And so she threw out 12 months. And we got to that 12-month period. And I said to her, Sarah, we can't end the book at 12 months. It would be the worst, most depressing book in the history of the world. Because at 12 months, I had no hope. I still had no hope.

And then it was over the course of the next six months, because the book chronicles the 18 months following his death, that I started to see that I get my hope back. I didn't have it back, but I started to see down the road, okay, I can see a time where my hope will return. And that's why that last section of the book is called Hoping for Hope, is because I was hoping that at some point I would get my hope back. But, you

griefandlight (39:49.708)
That's just what was so shocking in a way is that I was blindsided by his death. You can never prepare yourself for the death of a child. I don't think you can prepare yourself for anybody's death. But even though that had been a fear, I was completely blindsided, completely lost my hope. And that is why I think I fell into that despair and that depression is because

The outcome that I so desperately wanted for him and honestly believed was his future was just ripped away. It was just gone in the blink of an eye. And that was incredibly difficult, incredibly difficult to navigate and incredibly difficult to get through. So, understand. No, it's understandable. And I like that you bring up that you

prayed, your faith just played such a key role, and the outcome wasn't anything you wanted or ever even imagined would happen. So that came through in your book about this person trying to reconcile these two seemingly opposite realities. Here is my trust and my faith and everything that I know to be true, and we still have to live with this unimaginable loss. So how

Did you reconcile or have you reconciled those two aspects of life really? Or is that something that you're still working on? I think I'm still working on it, I'm further down the road than I was certainly when the book was completed and further than I was even two years ago, a year ago. But it was...

Again, I was just so angry. I felt like I was betrayed. I felt like I was abandoned. I felt like this promise that I thought I had received was ripped from me. And so, you know, it really took a long time. you know, at first, to be honest, I was just kind of going through the motions. You know, my husband and I were part of a faith community. So we continued to be part of that faith community. They were, you know, in one regards like family. So we continued to...

griefandlight (42:13.976)
go to church, we continue to be part of their lives and they were part of our lives. I continued to, I couldn't necessarily pray myself, but I knew a lot of people were praying for us. I continued to do some Bible studies off and on. And I kind of was faking it, going through the motions. I don't know the right way to put it. But when I look back now, so it's been over four years, I see so many

I'm gonna call them God moments, whispers from heaven, whatever you wanna say. And I think starting with the bird, the bird that I saw within days of Max passing away, I think it was even that first day. And for me to notice a bird, we live in a very wooded area, so there is an abundance of birds here. And there's always birds around. So for me to notice one that was...

trying, it seemed to be trying to get my attention was pretty remarkable. So, you know, that was, that was a kind of a little whisper from heaven. And then there have just been instance after instance of things of that nature where I can see that God was with me. I can see that he was bringing people into our lives. Another example is, is my therapist and our marriage therapist.

I was established with a therapist prior to Max leaving, and that was incredibly helpful and providential because I don't know that I would have made it through without her. She's just been such a source of wisdom and support to me. And same with our marriage therapist. Having a child who struggles for so many years is difficult on a relationship. so Bill and I had been seeing a marriage therapist prior to Max passing, and we have continued to see, unless frequently...

but he has been instrumental in helping us to maintain good communication, to talk about difficult things, to not judge each other for the way that we're grieving because that's so easy in a marriage. so those are all things that I can look back and I can see these things were in place. And I don't believe they're coincidences. I believe that that was the Lord's provision.

griefandlight (44:36.814)
plays such a huge role in allowing that space for everybody to be here, just getting us to a place where, you grieve your way, I grieve my way, and that is very evident in marriage. I know there's a high instance of separation after the loss of a child, which you also mention in the book, and how you and your husband navigated that with the help of therapy and the support groups and everything, which to my understanding, I think it was Sam's girlfriend who helped

find the support group, which I thought was very beautiful. Yeah. She's an amazing young woman. Right at that year anniversary, we all sort of started to tank. Sam had to take some time off work. Bill had to take some time off work. As we just tried to navigate, I think we all were sort of holding out hope that at that year anniversary, we're going to start to feel better.

And in some ways that second year is harder because all of the shock, all of the numbness has worn off. You've kind of gotten through all of the firsts, the first birthdays, the first holidays, the first anniversary, and then you're just staring down at forever. And so I think for a lot of people that second year is a little bit more difficult. And so we were at that point in June of 2021 and Julia, Sam's girlfriend at the time, she had had experience with support groups herself.

And so she knew how helpful they were. None of us had. So we didn't even know that we needed it. But she got online. She found a group. She found actually a couple of groups. She interviewed the facilitators and finally settled on this one. And you know, this is another providential thing. It turned out that the group that was online at that time because of COVID was actually based in Naples, Florida, where Bill and I have a second home.

And so we have since met those people in person. They have become friends. They've become like family to us. that was, Julia didn't even know that when she selected him and that group for our family, for Sam and for our family. So that's another, you know, providential little whisper from heaven. But so it was at that year, Mark, that we all joined a support group. And I cannot.

griefandlight (46:57.642)
stress enough how valuable those groups are, because to be with a group of people who understand what you've gone through, who have been through the same thing, it's so normalizing and validating. We knew we could say anything to those people and we would see them shaking their heads. And that was just so powerful that I think I always tell the facilitator, is just a saint on this earth. He's been facilitating this group for

I don't know, 36, 37 years at this point. He's an amazing human being. But I always tell him, I think that that group in some ways was the single biggest factor in our healing because we finally felt understood. We finally felt less alone. And we have Julia to thank for that. And I mean, I don't know if you know this, but Sam and Julia just got married this past December. congratulations to them. That's wonderful.

This beautiful girl who came alongside Sam in the days after Max passed and just walked beside him and supported and loved him and now she is part of our family is again such a blessing, a, you know, just so providential. Well, congratulations to you and Sam and Julia sounds like a wonderful, wonderful person who gets it for better or for worse, but I feel like it's in this case for better.

Wonderful addition to the family and I'm thankful that she had this understanding to say, know, I think a support group and finding the right support group will make a big difference and it did. So how beautiful. And while we're on the topic of Sam, as a bereaved sibling myself, losing my only sibling, I have a special place for siblings in my heart. So when I was reading your chapter about Sam and how Sam had the run for max, I think it's called.

He created the run for Max's birthday where he ran, it was supposed to be 27 miles, but he ended up doing like 30 or something like that and raised funds for a suicide prevention awareness and all these things. also want to mention the rule of the bereaved sibling and all of this and how we try to carry this grief.

griefandlight (49:14.954)
And it's not just the loss of our sibling, but it's like the loss of our parents as we knew them and the loss of our family unit as we knew them. it's grief. The loss of one member ripples out in so many different ways to each member of the family and each person experiences that differently. So husband, wife, mom, dad, sibling all have their own unique experiences. So I just wanted to, to mention that because I saw that as well. Yeah. Yeah. The, the run that, so Sam has done that.

twice now. did it, so it would have been 2021 in honor of what would have been Max's 27th birthday. And I think he raised over $20,000. For me, amazing. the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. He did the run again last year and ran 29 miles in honor of what would have been Max's 29th birthday and raised again over $20,000. And he's doing it again this weekend in honor of what- This weekend. Excellent.

So Max's birthday was this past Sunday and Sam's race is this coming Saturday, which is October 5th. And he is going to run 30 miles and we are still fundraising, but it's over $6,000. So over the years that Max passed, Sam alone has raised over $50,000 for this organization. And we are so proud of him. And we're all active grievers.

all have done things with our grief. And that is something that Sam has done. And it's a way to honor Max, think about Max, remember Max, but then again, do something physical, do something active with his grief. And I just, think that's helpful. It's been helpful for all of us. So. Yeah, It's kind of a beautiful way to honor his brother, honor his grief.

help other people, raise awareness, all the things all at once. So wonderful thing. Thank you, Sam. And congratulations again on your wonderful accomplishments. You're an amazing sibling. So I know what that's like to carry our siblings in all that we do. And I see that, so I want to acknowledge it as well. And I know that now you help grievers. So at what point did you decide, look, I want to move to this next phase, helping other parents?

griefandlight (51:36.526)
When did that shift happen and tell us about the work that you do now with Grievers? So it happened after my book came out. The book came out and it came out in print in April of 2022. And pretty immediately I started to connect with other grieving parents. And I also connected with other parents who had a child living with mental illness. And so I felt like I needed just more credibility. I felt like I needed more tools in my toolbox.

So I found the David Kessler Grease Educator Certification Program and participated in that, thinking it would help me as I had these conversations with these people, as I connected with them, you know, either in person or on social media. And I'm very grateful because not only was it educational, but it was incredibly healing for me because, and I remember my therapist said that.

She was like, well, this is going to be good for you in your Greek journey. I was like, no, that's what you're for. This is just going to be educational. And then I would go through a session, and it would just really speak to me and touch me. But one of the things that was so powerful, and you probably found this in your certification as well, is I would learn concepts. I would learn models. And I would think that's why I felt that way.

or that's why I reacted when this person said such and such to me. And it just kind of put some framework and some terminology behind all of those thoughts and feelings that I struggled with and didn't know why. And so I am a big believer in education. And coming out of that certification, I realized I was going to take that education I had learned and the power of the support group that I had experienced

and start my own grief groups for bereaved parents. And I think that that is incredibly gratifying to see the groups that come together, because it's always kind of a unique mix of people, and then just to see the way they bond together and then support one another. And I also bring education into each session. So we might talk about the models of grief. We might talk about the needs of the grieving.

griefandlight (53:57.442)
We might talk about trying to navigate grief in a grief illiterate society, but there's always some educational component. I just, it's really an honor for me to facilitate them because I bring that educational piece in, but then the support and the encouragement and the love that happens among the people that are part of the group is really pretty amazing to see. So I offer these short-term online groups. only six weeks long.

because I think sometimes when you're grieving, you can't commit to something that's indefinite. And I do it online rather than in person because I think, again, when people are grieving, sometimes they don't want to get in their car and go somewhere. I actually have people who have joined my group from their beds. And so I think the online just makes it more accessible to people. And I've had people in my groups really all over the country, frankly, all over the world.

a woman from Costa Rica and a woman from Canada. And so it's just very gratifying to be able to come alongside those other grieving parents. It's honoring, like I said, to share their stories and to share their grief and just know that they're getting support, which was so helpful for me when I was in their shoes. So that's a little bit about the grief groups. That's a wonderful resource. And I will link all the information in the show notes. But if you don't mind telling the listeners,

where they can find you and where they can maybe sign on to one of your grief groups. this episode will air in about a month, so we're talking around November. So if you have something lined up for around that timeframe, maybe mention that. Okay. So my current group is going to run through November, so I probably won't start another group until after the first of the year. But people can find me on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Erin Bleckman.

And I also have a website that is aaronbleckman.com. And that has information about everything. That has information about my book. It has information about my community talks. And so if anybody is interested in having a speaker at a special event, a church, a community group, I've even spoken at some businesses. A law office invited me to talk because they had lost a partner to suicide.

griefandlight (56:20.29)
So I'm very passionate about elevating the conversation about mental illness, suicide, loss, and grief. And then it also has information about my grief groups. So it has kind of the framework of what the groups look like. There's a form that people can fill out. And they can also sign up for my email list as well. And that's erinbleckman.com. Perfect. I will link that as well as the link to get Erin's book. It is a beautiful book in every sense of the word.

not just aesthetically, but you could tell you wrote from your heart and there are parts that are very raw and at the same time, it's exactly what a griever needs to hear when they're going through that to feel identified, to feel seen, to feel like what I am feeling is not only okay, but this is as hard as it is and we can get through it, you know, one step at a time. So thank you for everything that you're doing. Thank you for the way that...

You honor your beautiful son Max and for writing this book and for all the resources that you provide to this community that needs all the support. I do believe that grieving in community is part of how we move forward. I do believe in the power of that. Feeling witnessed and seen and understood is powerful medicine. So thank you for that. And before we end, I would like to give you the floor to just.

anything that maybe I didn't ask, anything that's in your heart to say right now so that we can complete the conversation. I love the way you just kind of summed things up, Mina, that I do believe that grief is best experienced and processed in community. I don't know that we can do it on our own because everybody that I talk to, either because they've read my book or because they're interested in one of my grief groups or because they've

listen to one of my talks, everybody who's grieving feels like they're doing something wrong. Everybody feels like there's something wrong with them. And I think that when you're in a community, when you're in a support group, you know other people that have experienced a loss, it's just so normalizing. And I think that is the piece that can help us move forward.

griefandlight (58:34.318)
Because if we feel like we're doing something wrong, if we feel like they're, like, I honestly thought at the 12 month mark that there was something wrong with me. I really did. I thought, okay, maybe I just need to go into some kind of institution because I am not fit for regular society. And so once I got past that, once I realized that what I was feeling was just the normal natural reaction to losing a beloved child, that I was able to say, okay, now that I know I'm normal,

I think I can begin to experience this better, process it better, and have other people help me along this journey. And I do think that that is so powerful and really, really important. So thank you for what you do. Thank you for the work that you do in this community and the beautiful way you honor your brother. I just, think that is such a legacy. And I'm sure your parents are very, very proud of you.

I appreciate it so much. feel like this is how we get to love them now and this is how I get to be his sister. And it's an honor. It was an honor being his sister and it still is in this capacity. So it's bittersweet, it's painful and I love that we get to do this in their name and honor and help other people as well. And as a final question, what would Erin today say to Erin after the loss of Mac?

griefandlight (59:58.03)
I think just you're going to, you're, you're going to be okay. he was an amazing kid. He was an amazing son and you're going to help other people get to know how amazing he was. And you're going to help other people as they navigate their own loss. I think if I, if I knew that back then.

then I think maybe things would have been a little easier. I would have been perhaps a little gentler with myself. But yeah, yeah, that's a good question. That's beautiful. Thank you so much, Erin. Thank you for being you. The love you have for Max and Sam is palpable, and it transcends life and death. Thank you for all that you're doing and for being generous with your time. Thank you. thank you. Thank you, Nina. I appreciate the opportunity.

That's it for today's episode. Be sure to subscribe to the Grief and Light podcast. I'd also love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and your stories. Feel free to share them with me via my Instagram page at griefandlight, or you can also visit griefandlight.com for more information and updates. Thank you so much for being here, for being you, and always remember, you are not alone.