LIFE SHIFT: Matt Gilhooly on grieving loved ones, pet loss, and healing through storytelling

In remembrance of the goodest boy, Mikey.

Matt Gilhooly shares his profound journey through grief, beginning with the sudden loss of his mother at a young age. He reflects on how this pivotal moment shaped his life and the way he processes emotions. The discussion delves into the complexities of grief, the impact of childhood trauma, and the perfectionist tendencies that can arise from a desire to mask pain. Matt also contrasts his experiences with anticipatory loss, particularly with his grandmother, highlighting the importance of open communication and emotional connection during difficult times. The conversation emphasizes the significance of storytelling in understanding and navigating grief. Matt reflects on personal experiences with family dynamics in grief, the healing power of writing, and the creation of The Life Shift Podcast, which features candid conversations with people about the pivotal moments that changed their lives forever. He also delves into the profound grief associated with losing his pet, Mikey, highlighting the unique challenges it presents.

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Takeaways:

• The stories we carry shape our identities and connections.
• Grief often intertwines with trauma, especially in childhood.
• Children may not fully grasp the concept of death and grief.
• Perfectionism can stem from a desire to mask grief.
• Processing grief can take decades and may not follow a linear path.
• Anticipatory loss allows for meaningful conversations and closure.
• Grief is not just about the loss of a person, but also the loss of potential experiences.
• Open communication is crucial in navigating relationships during grief.
• Understanding one's grief journey can lead to personal growth.
• Healing from grief involves recognizing and addressing past traumas. 
• It's important to have open conversations about grief with family.
• Writing can be a powerful tool for processing grief.
• Creating a podcast allowed for sharing and healing through stories.
• Pet loss can be as profound as losing a human loved one.
• Making decisions for a pet's end-of-life care is incredibly difficult.
• Sharing our stories helps others feel less alone in their grief.
• We need to normalize conversations about grief and loss.

Connect with Matt Gilhooly:

• lifeshiftpodcast.com
• @thelifeshiftpodcast
• YouTube
• Facebook

Referenced in episode:

• lapoflove.com
• Coping with Pet Loss: Saying Goodbye to Mikey

Join THE COMMUNITY


Connect with Nina Rodriguez:

• @griefandlight
• griefandlight.com
• 1:1 Grief Support

Chapters

• 0:49 Introduction, Meet Matt Gilhooly
• 3:21 Losing his mother at 8 years old
• 8:14 Life Shift: The Complexity of Childhood Grief and Onset of Perfectionism
• 11:29 Unpacking Grief: Two Decades of Self-Discovery
• 14:50 Working through Childhood Grief and Perfectionism in Therapy
• 17:28 Making Peace with Past Losses
• 25:10 Anticipatory vs. Sudden Loss: A Personal Perspective
• 35:20 How Personal Relationships Change after Loss
• 37:51 The Healing Power of Sharing Stories
• 41:14 Creating The Life Shift Podcast
• 47:06 Remembering Mikey
• 51:00 Lap of Love
• 53:22 Grieving Pet Loss
• 58:38 Reflections on Life, Loss, and Moving Forward

Transcript

00:00:00 I was blindsided by it, but it was just like something that like I could never have pictured. Considering all the other forms of grief that I have moved through. This was seemingly insurmountable. Like, am I going to make it through the next hour without breaking down completely? Then gradually it gets easier. But I really wish I had understood what that loss was like. It was losing a routine. It was losing someone that was that had zero judgment of you. You just lost your loved one. Now what? Welcome to the Grief in Life podcast, where we explore this new reality through grief colored lenses openly, authentically. I'm your host, Nina Rodriguez. Let's get started. How do the stories we carry shape who we become and how we connect to each other? Today I am joined by fellow podcaster Matt Gill, Julie, host of the Life Shift podcast, which was actually named number one in the podcast of 2023 by Ear Worthy. So congratulations, Matt. Matt brings a unique blend of communication and storytelling skills to his work, where he explores the pivotal moments that shape our lives, helping listeners find common ground in shared experiences. Unfortunately, at the tender age of only eight years, Matt unexpectedly lost his mother in a car accident. This life altering event shifted life as he knew it. Most recently, he also experienced the loss of his beloved grandmother and his dog, Mikey. I recently had the pleasure of being a guest on Matt's podcast, and today I have the opportunity to switch roles diving into the nuances of his journey. And with that, I would like to give a very warm welcome to Matt. Matt, welcome to the Grief and Light podcast. Thank you for having me. It's always interesting to be on the other side. And, you know, it's weird to say that I'm excited to have this conversation because you know about a tough topic, but I think it's so important what you're doing and talking about it and normalizing the talk about it. I think that's just so valuable for people. Well, I appreciate it. And likewise, I know that you talk about those pivots in people's lives and so many of those, I would imagine, coincide with a big loss or a transformational event. And actually, I'm curious how many, if you could give a ballpark figure at all, are actually related to grief or loss? Because I know that is a common element. I would say I think. As of today, I've released 149 episodes. So maybe I would say that maybe I would say more than half of them are. Traumatic in some way, which I think involves grief. I think there are also some that are not traumatic that also involve grief. So it's a it's a tricky question to answer, but I would say that I can personally relate to. More than half of those stories because of the traumatic element that comes along with it. Right. And there is an element of, well, your stories began with them traumatic events. So say as much or as little as you feel comfortable about that eight year old version of you who experienced this big life change and loss. Sure. Yeah. I don't I think at this point I'm 43 now, so it's been a long time since my mom died. So I think it's not retraumatizing in that way. And I guess that's good and bad or indifferent. I'm not sure how to describe that. But yeah, I was eight years old. My parents were divorced. My parents lived in separate states. I lived primarily with my mother, and I had a really great relationship with my mother. She was really all I knew. I knew my dad, but he lived thousands of miles away and I would see him, you know, on holidays and those kind of things. And at this particular time, my mom was dating a man. Who's kind of like finding herself. She was early thirties, she was 32, and it was our first time really, I think, kind of going on adventures and going and doing things that maybe she never would have thought of in her life. And so in this particular instance, she was going on a cross-country motorcycle trip with her boyfriend is the second time they had done it. They were going from Boston to Denver and then coming back and it was just a bunch of people. These were upright, kind of like Honda motorcycles. So not. The derriere looking ones that we might think about. But I was eight. I remember kind of fighting her and saying like, I didn't want her to go and this was just maybe just a temper tantrum. But now I look back and I said I knew something so was going to say may be a part of you had an inkling in hindsight. In hindsight, yeah. And I also think like he was 32, was she going to listen to an eight year old having a temper tantrum telling her not to go? So I can't really think about that. But I was visiting my father in Georgia and she went on her trip and we communicated. It was a day that I was doing a normal thing during the summer, so my dad had to work, but I was going to camp and he would pick me up after work. And this day his boss's wife showed up earlier in the day to pick me up and bring me into the office. But it was like very odd because that never happened before. But also it was very quiet driving there. And then I remember kind of walking into the office and not many people were like looking up or talking. It was just very quiet in there as well. And they brought me into my dad's office and he had to sit me down and he sat on the other side of the desk and he had to tell me what he says are like the hardest words he's ever had to say in his life that my mom had. Died due to injuries from this motorcycle accident in Buffalo, New York. And she died a few hours after the accident. Her boyfriend had died at the accident scene. And at that moment, I think. Nothing that was envisioned for my life was ever going to to happen. In my opinion, everything kind of ended, I think also in my dad's life and his visions for me kind of ended in that moment. And so that was really what I look back on as my life shift moment and kind of the reason my podcast exists. Did you have the awareness as an eight year old of this? My life is never going to be the same. Or is that something that you now have words for as you process things through the years? I would say I mean, it's been 35 years. So I would say that it's probably more of the latter. I think it's something that I've reflected on. I don't think at eight years old, you really have a concept of death. I mean, you I think you understand it on the surface level. But I don't think you have. The wherewithal to kind of embrace that and understand what that really means and how much that's going to change things. It felt like a whirlwind, though, because I knew because everything I wasn't like in my home. I was never going home again. So I mean, we went into my home, but we were just like marking things that we wanted to take with me to move to my new home. I wasn't going to go to school with the same kids again, so all of those pieces felt very traumatic because nothing that was comfortable anymore for me existed. Like I couldn't sleep in my own bed again. I couldn't, you know, go to my school with my classmates and see my friends again. I mean, the family members around me were the same, but they were all grieving. So they weren't the same, you know, like they were processing things in different ways. So. Think I had the feelings of like. Loss and confusion and everything was different. But I don't know that it was attached necessarily to her death specifically, like understanding how final that was. Does that make sense? Absolutely. And I'm just, you know, trying to imagine living as an adult with the words and the current understanding that would be so incredibly difficult. You don't realize exactly the magnitude of what happened for some time. It wasn't just your mother. It was life as you knew it. It was everything about my life. And it was, you know, I had a relationship with my father, but it was different. He wasn't my full time parent. My parents had been divorced for years. And so in those formative like five years old to eight years old, like most of my time was spent with my mother. I saw my dad, I lost my dad. It was all those things. But now I had to create a relationship with this man who is now going to play the role of both parents. And he was going to do it full time and neither of us really knew what we were doing. Plus, he was trying to grieve as an adult. He was in his mid-thirties, and he's also trying to help or guide an eight year old through whatever he's doing. And so, yes, to the whirlwind question. The first couple of weeks, like going out there waiting for the waiting, waiting for the funeral. I remember a little snippets of that. And then I remember being thrust into my new life because this was like 1989. People weren't talking about things. It's like, here's your new school, here's your new bedroom, here's your new everything. Let's make this kid happy. Because I think that was just, like, the natural thing, like, is sad. So. We do the opposite and we like make them happy. We take them places, we buy them things, we do these things. Whereas now we know that's not the best way to process grief. But that was what everyone around me kind of knew how to do. And looking back on it, that's definitely what they did. It's one of those things where I feel like only recently this has become a very open and public conversation, and even still we're at the very beginning of it of understanding the magnitude of grief. I can only imagine the 19, I think, is a 1989 version of this, and the adults in the room saying we need to make sure he's going to be okay. And maybe that looks like is he smiling? Is he. Does he look like he's having fun or enjoying himself? And did you feel like you had to mess? Yeah. Knee length. Did that teach you instead to mask your feelings? Yes. Welcome to the point in my life in which I invited perfectionist tendencies in because. When you're eight and you realize that other people around you want to see you happy and you're not. You have to be happy. And what happens if they don't see you happy? Are they disappointed in you? I also like I think I became this way because I was afraid if my dad didn't see me as happy, was he also going to leave? Because as an eight year old, my mom left, right, like and she's gone. But that's something I did. I don't know. You don't think about these? I mean, as an adult, I know it wasn't. But, you know, when you're kid and then you're, like, worried that like the only one left might also leave. So you need to do everything you can to be perfect. To get good grades, you need to behave. You need to not step out of line. You need to impress. You need to do all the things that you think will show that you're fine. And so, yeah, I absorb that, like, super heavily at eight and that just. I still continues. So when did you become aware of that behavior and that you had to unpack and maybe reap repairing? I think it's what it's called. Repair yourself in that some. Well, I wish I could say that happened very shortly after, but it was about two decades of. A journey through grief that I didn't realize that was grief. Because I think when you are absorbing that, people want you to be happy. You push down that grief so you don't actually process it. You just kind of push it aside, pretend it's it's not there any kind of thing that bubbles up from that, whether that be anxiety or depression or this, that or the other. It's like a byproduct of it. But you still don't realize that it's because you haven't processed things and then you become a teenager. And then being a teenager, you just don't think about these things because you're trying to impress your friends. You're trying to do all the things that teenagers do, and then you get into your twenties and then it's just habits, right? Like everything becomes a habit. And so I it, I think I was probably early thirties before I truly, truly unpacked that grief. I had little like. Practice at 16. Sometimes in my twenties, but like early thirties I was having trouble in work situations and being a true adult. Right. Famous, I felt bad. Like, What do you mean? What kind of. I was having struggles because I my goal always was to impress was to the next job, get the next promotion and get the next impressive project under your belt. You know, like it was always just like, how can I move up? Because that was how I equated love, I think. I don't know. But I think and so at this particular moment in at work situations, there was a person in my way and they were a negative force towards me. What they weren't really in my way. Like I wanted to push them out of the way. It was more of they were. Thinking things that I would create. They were knocking things down that were good or impressive or would normally get me to that next level. I was really struggling and in a work situation, not because I was failing, but because it was really frustrating. So I was like to go talk to somebody. Mind you, I've never thought that about my grief. I just it was always my story. It was always like, I think about teenage kids that, like, do your mom jokes. And it was always, oh, my response was, I just used it. It was like a crutch. It was like a tool. It was like they would say, Your mom jokes, and I would say, Well, she's dead. And then they would feel really bad, and then it would just be something I did. And so at this point, I was like, I got to go talk to someone about work. And of course, you got to go through the trials, right? Like you got to find a therapist that aligns with you. That is the right vibe. That's the right. Everything. You're like, I'm depressed. Work sucks. All these things like, help, help me. I'm a hopeless 30 something year old. I don't know how to fix this. And so I went through a bond somewhere, like, here's some drugs to take, here's some of this. And I'm like, I don't want any of that. I just need to, like, figure out how to process this. Found the right woman. She was amazing. Ended up telling my whole life story. She heard all the perfectionist pieces and stuff and. And really, what? Open the door part of the curtain. Part of the clouds was. After telling her, I don't know, a couple of weeks worth of content, she was like. You realize that everything that you've done since then was out of fear as an eight year old child, like every decision you made. Was with that eight year old brain that you were afraid someone was going to leave you, something was bad was going to happen. And, and like that was the the impetus of I mean, that was truly a life shift, like a sentence like that. All. I was and that's what my now regret about Pivotal was that how like how how does that shift literally how you view your life and how you view every interaction in retrospect the motivation behind, you know, this person might be doing something to take away from me, right? Like instead of viewing it as, Oh, this person is just doing whatever they do at work or. The work situation in that one. I don't know. I, I think back on that time period, I was like, well, maybe that was just a lesson. But when. My therapist said that, like, you realize what you've been doing. It was like this, like other weird grieving moment, like where I was grieving. All the things that I felt like I should have done, but I didn't because I had made the decisions with that eight year old brain. Like, what did I deprive myself of? Like, what kind of life could I have had had that eight year old had therapy or. Unpack things way back then and didn't make all these decisions and didn't take bigger chances on things because he was afraid he wasn't going to pass or wasn't going to do well or, you know, like all those things that I didn't do. So here I am in my early thirties thinking, Oh, what did I do to my life? So there was like this double layer of grief there because it was like now going to unpack. The loss of my mom. But now I also have to unpack. What that did to me and why I let that do that to me hurt me. I love that you bring that distinction because grief is not just related to the physical loss of a person. It's all the little moments in between and thereafter and the ones that ripple out into the rest of our lives. So I'm curious. Did you make peace with what could have been, quote unquote. Did you make peace with that side? Or is that something that's still very much ongoing? No, I think I did. I think I made peace with that. I think I also made peace with the fact that. My mom died and my life just changed and also started to embrace the fact that I'm this version of me because of all that and because of all the quote unquote poor decisions I may have made because I didn't know how to grieve for 20 years. I kind of look at that period as like failing through grief for like 20 years. And I understand that there's not a timetable, there's not any of those things. But at the same time, I look back at it now like I could have done a better. As this perfectionist kind of tendencies that I have. I give myself a D or an S in that in that realm, because like, had I known all these things, now I could, you know. It's it's a it's a weird place to be, but. I came to peace with it. I also feel like I did close the door on grieving my mom, which allowed a lot more space for love and and following through with building relationships, other spaces in my life. I got closer with my dad after that. I got I mean, I was always close with my dad's mom. And then got even closer at that point because I had the space. And I also realized that if I was to have her faces again, I didn't want to do it incorrectly. Because that's how I viewed the first version of your grief journey. And I and I want to respect that because at the end of the day, we use the words and the phrases and the understanding that feels right to us and that are true to our experience. And you said and you close I'm trying to remember the phrase you closed the door on grieving your mother, something to that effect. What does that mean? What does that look like? Was that in practice or was that something you just felt with time? I think there was something in my brain more so than my heart. Like I said, like in my teens and twenties, I really used the lack of grieving or the death of my mother kind of in a negative way, like in a in a crutch like way. And I would also use it as an excuse. So if anything bad happened, it wasn't my fault. It was because my mom died. If anything good happened, it wasn't because I earned it. It was because my mom died. And so it became this really toxic. Look at it. And to your point earlier, you like you grieve these things that you don't have. Of course, I grieved her not being at my graduations and like important events or birthdays and things like that. But losing her so early. I also don't remember my mother that much. You don't have like there's not a ton of time to like really solidify a lot of memories. And you're also not like super cognizant of, like, storing those memories, you know, because you don't understand death. She was 32. Like, sure, it felt old when I was eight, but once I turned 32, I was like, Oh, this is not old at all. What do I know? It became this, like, idea of of something. And when I had that conversation with a therapist, it was kind of like, you can let all that go, gets part of your story. It's made you who you are. But it's not an excuse. It's not a reason that that anything you do now or it shouldn't be a reason for anything that you do now. I guess the life shift came from it. But, you know, at the same time, it wasn't it didn't become this, like, crutch or this tool or. Like it was before. Like I had just. I put that in storage, you know, like, I don't need that anymore. It wasn't a part of my story anymore to weaponize it, if you will. Why, thank you for explaining that. And that's actually a fascinating point, because we can reframe the loss of our person as an excuse to do or not do certain things. It's such a fine line, right? Because I can always tell people in grief, you don't want to go to this party. If you don't want to do this activity, then don't. However, it's a good question to ask, are we using this loss? As an excuse or a crutch to do or not do the things that we were meant to do. So that's a question I'm not asking yes or no answers here. I'm just saying that's a way to reframe and rephrase and ponder about our own losses and how that may be manifesting in our lives. So I, I thank you for bringing that up. That's a very nuanced gray area, but it's a very powerful one that once we realize, look, I don't have to operate from this place of fear or excuses or pain in this way anymore. It's, I would imagine, liberating. I would imagine it was very liberating. Yeah. I think there was a period where. Was messy. Of course, they didn't know how to live without the crutch. Right. And to your point, too, I think we're not the only ones that weaponize it. I think other people will weaponize it against us in a way like. Oh, you should do that because your mom would have wanted you to do that. So, you know. Ah, yes. And when you're growing up, it's very common, especially with the adults around me. I don't think they process surgery in a healthy way either at the time. Right. Because so they don't really know what to do. And so I think it can be looking back, weaponized on especially on a child or a teenager, like, oh, you should do this because your mom would have wanted you to do this. Or, you know, and maybe that's true. But also, like, I shouldn't be guilted into something because this. Person that has been gone for 20 years would have wanted me. I don't know. That is true. And I shouldn't do something just because someone said that she would want me to do that, if that makes any sense, I think Think they don't do it out of malice. Sharp hitting. People don't know what to say and they want to encourage people to do more. But it does end up becoming like this little bit of a guilt trip like you have to. Do things because this person that no longer exists on the earth. Would want you to do that one. I don't know if that's true. So terrible. The setting is sometimes a internalize thing. And like you said, it's sometimes something that people put on you. And I could only imagine more as a child being on the receiving end of that that that's some that's a lot to unpack and I could see how that maybe was messy to get to a place of peace with it and release it and move forward on Matt's terms. Yeah, but you know what? I look at those 20 years of unquote failing at my grief journey. As a lesson. Like, it really taught me what I need, not what someone would have told me maybe when I was eight that maybe they thought I needed. What? Really, truly like what I needed to process grieve. At least for another adult you can talk about a dog. That's. That was something brand new but like. Grandmother in 2015 was diagnosed with cancer. And like at that point, no, in 2015 she died. So before that, she was diagnosed with cancer. And at that point, I knew what that meant. Like, I knew that the particular cancer that she had, the fact that it was metastasized, you know, like I knew what all those things meant and also knew what it would be like without her. So it was up to me now because now I had my own awareness of, but helped me process things to approach that appropriately and not to strategize, not making up words here, but not like make it this big saying, but also make it a big thing because there are things that we need to do before that happens To make sure that her soul feels good. My soul feels good. So that after the fact. It can move through past whatever that word looks like for us today. So I do look back. Kind of with like a gratefulness of the fact that kid didn't know what the hell I was doing and no one around me knew what they were doing either. And like all of that served me in a really, really healthy way. When my grandmother was facing her end. Well, I can definitely appreciate that. It's one of those things like pressure makes diamond. And, you know, you had these unusual life circumstances that I would daresay most kids don't experience, and yet it shaped you into the person you are today. And I know that we've touched on the difference between sudden loss and anticipatory loss. Excuse me. You have experienced both. And you said that there was some difference between the expected and unexpected elements. So maybe could you touch on that as to how it manifested with your mother and your grandmother? Yeah. I think that has to come from this like 43 year old perspective because. When losing my mom was kind of like just like being dropped in that whirlpool. No concept does anything. First of all, it's sudden, so you weren't anticipating it. But also, like when it happens, you're like. Like you don't know how to react. And no one around you knows how to react. And it's just like you can't plan for that. And the fact that she was 32. So every conversation that you have with anyone, even though you're eight. Any conversation you have is, oh, she was so young and she had so much life ahead of her. And like all these things that that kind of build up and create this monster inside of you. But then on the anticipatory side. Yeah, it's hard. It's totally hard. But I would. Welcome that kind of deaths. In any case, like if I knew that someone that I loved was was dying and we knew that there was a timetable. I know what I can force out of these people knowing my relationship with them. That sounds so terrible. But knowing my relationship with her saying, yeah, I know what I can force like with my grandmother. She was pretty open. She was pretty in touch with her feelings. But she was also she had a little bit of a wall, like she didn't want to break down too much. She was born in the thirties. It was kind of like a generation. Yeah, different generation. No, Cheryl, that. But I knew what I needed and I also knew her and I knew what she needed. And so when I felt like. Her close. Then? No, but when I felt this like maybe the next day she was going to be different than she was today. And today feels the most coherent and most. Her. I forced the conversation. I said, We're going to sit down and we're going to tell each other everything. Because the last thing I want to do is leave your apartment tonight and not have the opportunity to tell you how much you changed my life. I mean, she sold all of her belongings. She moved to Florida to live down the street because she knew my dad needed a little bit of help. She knew I needed a mother figure in the way that she could provide. Like she did everything for me. And I knew it was my responsibility to let her soul know how much she did for me. I'm not super religious. I'm not religious at all, I should say. But I knew she was. And I knew that she needed that. And we had like. The best conversation was at the hardest conversation I've ever had, most definitely. But it was the most raw, real conversation that you could ever, ever hope. You know, you think about these people that that you go to these funerals and people sit, have the eulogy and they say all these nice things. Like these are all the nice things that I would have said at the eulogy. And now I don't have to because I said it directly to her, to her face, and she was able to say the same things back to me. We were able to apologize for any little things that we did that annoyed each other throughout the years, but truly just showing how much we meant to each other and having that back and forth. I like. I wish everyone could have that conversation. You know, and so a sudden loss doesn't give you that, but neither does anticipatory loss because most people aren't. Ready to have that conversation. Like it's too scary, you know? So that's why I look back at the 20 years of me not grieving in the way that maybe I should have. It was like a gift because I knew what a mess that was and I knew that there were things I could do on this side of the deaths that would help me on the other side. And they did immensely. So I would choose that way. It's terrible to watch someone die. I mean, I don't recommend zero at a time. Zero out of ten. But if you can find the strength within yourself to do the things that will serve both parties or more than two parties. I would do it. You know, like I had that conversation she still had a few months after that. And then when we knew it was time, we were blessed to get this hospice house situation, which is kind of like this hotel of hospice. And I spent the last 96 hours in that room. I didn't leave to the point my dad was like, maybe he should leave. I'm like, I'm not leaving until we're done. You know, like. Need to see this through to the end. She was there in the hospital when I was born. I'm going to be here for this last breath. If I hadn't lost my I don't think I would have done that. Like, I feel like. Had I not missed all the opportunities because my mom's sudden death. I wouldn't have chosen the route that I did. But I'm so glad that I did. And I feel. So much more evolved than I was because of all the things I did through that. The journey of losing my grandmother. Well, that was beautiful. You know, there is beauty within all of these stories. And and I thank you for delving into that aspect, because I experience the sudden loss and and the beginning. In the early years, I used to wonder, would it be better if it would have been a long goodbye, like a long drawn out goodbye or the sudden? And I feel like they both stuck in their own way and don't attend for both zero at a time for both. And I also appreciate that in one aspect you get to say goodbye. And the other one, they didn't really suffer, you know. So it's it's this weird dichotomy that both options suck and yet there's. Some sort of grace, if you want to call it that, in both ways of going. So I could see that. Well, I was being selfish just talking about my side, sudden loss or anticipatory grief. She Yeah. I mean, I think you're right, though, for. If I had to choose how I wanted to to say I would choose the other way, I would choose a sudden. To your point. I don't want to say that's not interesting, but then I feel selfish. Hopefully you don't have to make that. I don't want to do anything about this. Don't make me pick one. Don't make you fake. But I can appreciate your perspective on both of those. So thank you for bringing that up. And I'm so grateful that you got that time with your grandmother and that you knew, like you said, kind of forced those conversations. I'm willing to say that she there will be probably enjoy them and appreciated the fact that you were open and honest because it is not easy to have these conversations and even you know, I talk about grief all the time and sometimes I struggle to have these conversations with my own family because the unsaid part, the quiet part out loud is we're talking about the day that one of us goes missing. Right. Like word for eternity. So it it's a tricky situation and it's so beautiful to be able to say those words. Like you said, don't save them for the funeral. Take them to their place whenever you can. When I left her apartment that day, I and I had nothing left. I needed to tell her. Beautiful. Like, there was no like there was no regrets. And, like, oh, I wish I would have said X, Y, Z. Like, there was it was empty. Like, that tank was empty. I poured all of it. I mean, I fell apart and I went back to my dad's house and it's a mess. And he was like, What's wrong with you? And I was like, Well, this is what I did. And I tried to influence those kind of conversations with other family members, and they just weren't ready. And I think. It's because they didn't have the same experience that I did. And, you know, in my journey. Sure. My parents were divorced. My dad loved my mom, you know, like and he lost her. But that's a different relationship than a child and a mother. And so, you know, you grieve that differently. This was his mom. He had never lost a mom before. So he doesn't know what that's like. And so it was hard to influence those kind of things. And I hope they did it in their own way. I don't really that's not my business. I think that they can find the spaces, but I did try to encourage it. But to your point, I don't think I think people are just scared of that. I don't think it's that they can't do it. I think they can. It's just really scary. It's like, well, you know, like, why am I saying this is the end? You know, like, let's wait till the very last minute and we don't know when that could be. Exactly. Would you say that you have a better relationship with your dad in terms of being able to speak openly on these topics now? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I don't I think he's of a different gender. I'm no, he's a different generation. So he has a different upbringing as a he has a lot of traits of my grandmother and he has a lot of traits of his father and. And he's more traditional. You know, I think he's more in touch with his feelings now, having lost his mother. I think that kind of does something to trouble. So yeah, we're very open with each other now. We really developed a really great relationship once I became an adult, which I think is probably the cause of a lot of a lot of father sons. And and I was going through Greece essentially, or maybe it was not hidden, but for me it was hidden. Other people probably would say so. Yeah, we have a really great relationship and I'm thankful because I think if my mom hadn't died, I would not have the relationship that I have. And now, you know, so. Kind of have to look at these silver linings in that in a in a sense that there are. Positive things that can happen from traumatic events. It's just how we use them and how we look at them and reflect upon them. We're not saying like we're glad it happened, but there are. Things that can happen because of that that can also be positive. It's being able to hold that and both. And it's being able to hold that this is true and this is also true and this sucks and it also sucks. And it's all part of life. And otherwise you take your whole entire life. Like something like I would, you know, like it was eight. I was eight. So then does that mean everything that happens after is is arbitrary? It can't be known. And, you know, I am a firm believer as personal belief that part of grieving well, whatever that means, I don't think that's a good thing. But part of well, I gave myself that D so I would say you did pretty darn good. I wasn't there for all of it, but it sounds like you did the best you could. And it's about expanding our capacity to hold the magnitude of life's experiences. And it sounds like you did that beautifully. And along the way, you also found your voice quite literally with the podcast. And, you know, that was later in life that wasn't necessarily as a teenager or a young boy, but those versions of you led you there. So maybe talk to us a little bit about how that evolved and how you became the host, producer, creator, founder, all the things scholars. Sarah Yeah, I, you know, I look back and I reflect on, on this Greek journey. I think I mentioned the cracks. I think when I was about 16, we had this personal narrative assignment in our English class and we had to write something. And this I can remember as. Really the first time that. I wrote about the moment. That my mom died and it was kind of like that first crack. Letting something out like a bloodletting, if you will. And a sense of I wrote about the I think even it starts with like the hour and the minute and how many like how many days into the year and what minute was and all these things of when she died. And I think maybe that was the first time I put that to paper and then just talked about that journey and then what it looked like after the fact and reflecting on the funeral and things that happened at that funeral and things that came from that and kind of thinking about how how I could reframe that kind of less that alone. But it was like this first moment of like expressing myself in a way that, like, broke me open, I think, to the point where I had to take some time off, like a day off of school or something. Like, I really, it really affected me in that way. And then since then, like starting at 16 and then like every so often I would start to write and I would just like for myself, I would just kind of like stream of consciousness writing. They got things out because I didn't feel safe enough to say them out loud. I think that I wasn't in that space yet. And then after this therapy moment, I started sharing things more. Where? Maybe the previous version of me or even my father would be like. You probably shouldn't share that stuff. Only show the shiny parts, only show the good parts. And I was of the opinion that twofold. Help me by putting this out there because things seem to be a lot scarier and messier in my head than they are when I put them on paper or say them out loud. But the second part is that there are people out there that will read, that will connect with, that feel seen, will feel less alone, will send me a message behind the scenes saying, Thank you for writing that. I feel the same way. I can't tell everyone but. Now, whatever it may be, whether I'm having a bad day, whether I'm feeling depressed, whether it's anxiety, whatever it. So it kind of evolved from that. I felt like I was just trying to like. Get it all out like it was bottled up for so many years. And I just like I'm a human. I'm a human. I'm a human. I'm a human. Everyone like. Don't forget, I'm not just happy like I can be. All the things I can be sad. I can be mad, I can be happy, I can laugh, I can cry. I can do all the things because. I'm allowed to because I'm human. And I think growing up in the eighties and nineties kind of taught that boys have to do certain things like You can't cry, boys, I'll cry. And then like I cry all the time and I'm proud of it, you know, like, it's fine. So yeah, I think it kind of, it's like migrated from that. The podcast, funny enough, the podcast seemed to be because during the pandemic I was bored and I got a second master's degree and so I got a second electives, a podcasting, or like baking and growing plan. I just went and got a full master's degree. Sure. I also released 13 coloring books on Amazon and a kids book and all sorts of stuff. But I was bored, but I got this second master's degree and I took this podcasting class and. We just had to like do two episodes. It had to be an interview based and I was like, I want to do what Nina's doing and do a grief podcast. I really did. I just wanted to do like I just wanted to talk about my grief. And I was like, wow, that's how really depressing I was. That's, you know, I was like, I don't know if I can do that long term. I think I could, but I don't know that I can. Serve. Enough people in that way. Knowing me, I feel like I would burn out. So I came up with the idea or thinking about like this moment that my dad sat me down in his office and told me that my mom and I'd. I thought about like how 5 minutes before that my life was one way, even though she was already dead, like My life still felt normal. And then as soon as the last word came out of his mouth, my life was like. Blank page. What? What do we do now? So I thought of like two other people have these life shift moments in which like. 1/2 to the next thing. Everything's different. Turns out they do. Not the only one. And we have more than one. And although it feels like we're the only ones going through this, if whenever a big pivot happens. But yes, exactly. And so, you know, like it all started from an assignment. And then I just started with like some friends that I knew had like these life shift moments, whether that was a friend of mine whose husband died in a plane crash or, you know, someone that was diagnosed with with a disease and that changed everything or, you know, whatever it may be. So I started with people that I knew in my circle, and it just started like doing its own thing. And to this point, I mean, what is it? I don't even know what today is, but I haven't looked for guests in over two years for my show because. Like you said, both are very alone in their circumstance. And now the more that people are hearing other people talk about these life shift moments or these these losses or gains or whatever it may be. They want to share more and they want to feel like, Oh, someone help me feel less alone. Maybe I can do the same for someone else. And so here I am. I just get to be, you know, the conduit of. You know, medium that people can share their story. And I just listen. But it really helps me on my healing journey, I'm sure, for you. You might feel that and some of the conversations in which. Someone's story or something that they say kind of not that we need it, but it validates our feelings about some things. Yeah. And you're like, Oh, I thought it was the only one that felt that particular way. Right. And I've just been so blessed to. To have all these people, including yourself, to come on a show with a stranger and, like, pour out all their feelings and and cry and share things they've never shared with anyone before. And, like, who am I? But maybe this whole journey that I've been on has allowed me to hold the space for other people. So it's just I'm just so thankful for the Life Shift podcast and I'm so thankful for the life of podcasts. Thank you for exploring that side with curiosity and, you know, daring to have these conversations and put a platform and a big voice and a microphone to the experience. Because to your point, you said something about when you shared, somebody would kind of secretly say, oh, me too. Right? And I feel like people are tired of being this hidden secret society, like unwilling secret society where our feelings and our experience are shunned when it is. Like you said, I'm not just this happy kid. I am this happy kid. And, and and and and we are this multifaceted. Being with all these different life experiences and all of them are okay. Even the more challenging side, not so cute ones that happen in our lives. So I love that that you answered that call and you gave it a voice. Your podcast is helping many people for sure. I hope so. And I hope that people don't feel like forced to come out of hiding. Yes, they absolutely do. You know, like I think that's the beauty of podcasts as they can be anywhere, everywhere at any time. Right. Right. Like something we recorded two years ago will be there five years from now and someone might find it. And in that moment they feel less alone. Doesn't mean they have to go tell their story to anyone, but right now they feel like held a little bit like seen seen. And I think that's a power, you know, like, I don't know, I'm not telling everyone needs to come air their dirty laundry. But I think that people should feel comfortable if they're ready to do so and not ashamed, especially people that are holding on to things that. You feel ashamed about that? We're out of their control. That's something that happened to them, you know? And like, it's not a shame thing that they should be holding on to at all. And by letting it out, like I said before, things in my head feel like so much scarier. And so I put them out. And maybe the same will be true for them if they can share with a friend or something like that. But not saying that they have to. Nobody has to get permission. I just think it's nice to give that permission, to give that space and to hold it for them. I think that's beautiful and it's very powerful and healing for for many of us. I want to touch on also your beloved dog, Mikey, and that experience Mikey, right? Yeah. He's right here. Yeah. Oh, I see the photo so beautiful. And whatever you're ready to share, because that was so recent. And I know that was a whole other experience. And as you think of, you know, what you want to share, I just want to highlight that pet loss is so very real. The grief of loss is so real. And some people have said it's it's like losing a family member because of the closeness, the habit of seeing them in as like a everyday part of your life. So who was Mikey to you and what this experience has been like grieving him? Yeah. That is to your point, though. Pet Losses is something that maybe before I experience it, I didn't. Maybe I brushed off like other people do, and I think it should be more shared and people should feel more comfortable. I think people like, Oh, it's just a pet. But to your point, it is like it's like a family member. I think it's it's different than a family member. And in some cases, it's harder. Which is so weird to say out loud. I got my when I was like 20. 29, I think I got be when I was 29 and that was before. I had my little breakthrough with my therapist, so, like, he saw me when I was a hot mess. He saw me during the hot mess. We moved together like he was crazy, but in such a good way. And looking back on it, like he. He had a lot of energy and he would think like maybe he also drank energy drinks like I do and read. Sometimes I would get annoyed by that and I would think, how can you like calm down? Like someday you're going to calm down. He never did. And now after I lost him, he just wanted to get like most out of every moment. And so if he could get somewhere quicker, he would, because then he could experience more of it. And that's like I look back on like, Yeah, I wish that over those 14 years I had realized that and not just been like, Oh, he's crazy, you know? And like, these are the things that we learned from it. But that journey was really hard. It was something where I thought he was going to live forever just because he had all that energy. And then around the time he turned 14, he started noticing like. Like shakes and things like that and. And I brushed off, like, oh, it's just arthritis, it's whatever. And. Last couple of months. It was just like a noticeable change every day. And here I am like, okay, I lost my mom, failed at that, achieved it. The grief part loss. My grandmother did really great with that like champ of grieving like the best I can handle this like this is you know, it's a dog like I'll be okay not realizing that like just gone through four years of the pandemic. Right? So he's my shadow. Every day I'm working from home. Like every time I go to the bathroom, he's following me. Every time I go there, you know, wherever it is, he's just my shadow. He's just always been there as long as I can really remember as my toes. We got closer and we had to kind of make a decision like. Like, What do I do? Like, he's falling and he's not eating the same way. And, like, things are changing, and he's not sleeping through the night and he's peeing in the house. And, you know, all these things I've got. Like, what do I have to do? So. Where is the manual for this? And there are manuals, but people are tired about it. No, I don't know. There's officially a manual, but there's like, what do you do? And you control that. And they're like, We'll give you this medicine, we'll try these shots, we'll do all this stuff. And you're like. But I know him. I know that he's changing, and I know that he's not happy. He's not the happy dog that he was. He's still happy, but. If he had a choice is probably not how he would want to live. So I found something and I just learned about it and I hope other people know about it. But it's called Lapse of Love. It's called Lap of Love. And this is a in-home kind of euthanasia. Program that they're veterinarians that come to your house. Instead of bringing your dog to a sterile kind of that situation that they've always hated go into. You can make a comfortable choice. You can plan it so you can do all the things that you want to do. You don't have to wait until you know they're dying and you have to rush them immediately to the emergency room and stuff. And this sounds really terrible to say out loud, but. Talk to them. And there are a lot. You know, it's better to be a month too soon than a day too late when you have to make this decision. Because the last thing you want to do is is be in a panic because something bad is happening and you have to rush them. So when I kind of started, like there were a couple of things he would do. He would start to get lost in the backyard and we'd get stuck behind bushes and staring at the wall and like very confused. And he would just constantly circle the couch at the end. So I made the call and I had to like I'm like, what do I do in there? Like, you do what you need to do. You're asking the right questions. You make the decision that they were like the nicest people. So if you're ever in the situation, please, anyone listening, consider a lap of. It's just like I've never met them more compassionate people. So the last day we we planned I had his favorite humans come over the day before the week before our visit with him got ice cream. We got like a hamburger they didn't even really care about. And, you know, we did the things and we told him that I loved him. And and and then they came over and they kind of went through the whole thing. And my other dog, Marley, sat by and she watched the whole thing, which was really interesting to experience. And then it was over and they took the dog, they took him away and they took him to the crematorium and all that stuff And and then I was like, okay, now it's really quiet in here, even though Molly's here. And I saw I called my neighbors, I was like, We can we go out to eat? I need a distraction. Like, I need, like something. I feel like I'm okay, but I need something did that I got it like I, I, I got through. I did the right thing. I'm sad, but I also, like, feel like I'm going to get this the next morning. All the routines are now changed, you know, and the loss was more than I could handle. And I was legitimately shocked at I was, you know, keeled over on the floor, crying, sobbing, like uncontrollably grieving out loud. Of this loss. And I was. Was blindsided by it. And I knew was okay, but it was just like something that, like I could never have pictured considering all the other forms of grief that I have moved through. This was seemingly insurmountable. Like, am I going to make it through the next hour without breaking down completely? More than true for like the first day. First day or two. And then gradually it gets easier. But I really wish I had understood what that loss was like because it wasn't just losing a pet, losing a shadow. It was losing a routine. It was losing someone that was that had zero judgment of you when you were looking your deepest, most disgusting, you know, like when you smelled your worst when you all the saying love you no matter what exactly and would snuggle up with you whether you know you were disgusting or not or whatever Whereas people in your life. I don't see all the time. They don't see you at every moment. And and it's it's a big loss. And so I hope more people talk about it because I just feel like had I understood it and maybe you can understand it until it happens, but had I understood more, how do I make this decision? Like you can guide me through this anticipatory grief that we were talking about earlier? Because as a human. I have to make this decision for. Another being can't make the decision for themselves. It's like that's. That's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And like, that's why that helped me. Like, when that was, like, better among too soon than a day too late. Because it really helped me realize that, like. What to think about his quality of life. I also have to think about my quality of life. What does that end period look like for all of us? So it was a really it was really challenging. It was really unexpected. It was. Unbelievably different than losing a human being. And in some ways, in my experience, my personal experience, in some ways it was harder. Because you couldn't have that, like the conversation that I had with my grandmother. One way, right? Like mine with my dog was one way I could tell him. He couldn't tell me. We couldn't have that closure there was I making the right decision. So a lot of it was really, really difficult and surprising. But I shared it on my podcast. Like I shared. Like I. Like a message to him. And now if I go back and listen to it now, I was deep in that grief when I recorded that and I'm a lot farther along now, so I feel okay talking about it. But even last night I broke down. I was going through that rabbit, like these iPhones. Phones. Now, like you can just go through like 15 years of photos and add a categorizes them. This is a dog. This is your dog, Mikey. And so I was just scrolling through and I like cried myself to sleep because I think of all like the fun things and how we're not going to get to do that again. So different. But thank you for letting me share that, I think. So unexpected. Thank you for sharing that. And we honor Michy, your grandmother, your mother and life. The beautiful, bizarre, messy called life. Messy and beautiful and good and all the things. And I do want to I am glad we took this time to talk about pet loss, because it is such a huge part of people's lives. And I don't think it's given the plays it merits. I have my my sort of pandemic post loss of my brother's pandemic pup. And it's like you say, like you get these little creatures and they become such an integral part of your life. And I, I know I had a life before him. I know I existed without him, but I can't fathom life without him right now. And I have so much compassion for hearing you say kind of give me chills, but just hearing you say I had to make this decision for him and you can't consult them, and am I doing the right thing? And I love that. Companies like Lap of Love, I think you said it's called exist because what a loving way to do the most difficult thing. You probably have to do them the most difficult decisions. And like you say, I love that you get to be home because at the end of the day, part of this traumatic experience is when you're in a very sterile, transactional, mechanical, exact environment versus your home, like where they were every single day. And I think I'm going to link their their Paisley Garland on the show notes as well as your episode and your podcast information, just so everybody can tune in to all the parts that we touched on in this conversation so beautifully. I appreciate it. Absolutely. And we're sort of at the end here. And I want to give you an opportunity to say maybe something that's in your heart or in your mind or something that I didn't ask so that we can complete the conversation. Yeah. I think it's simple. I think we need to talk about it more. And that's what you're doing. I think that we're all going to go through grief and it might not be from loss like a person, could be a pet, could be something else, could be a job. It could be like something that's really important to someone. And I think for so long, so many of us were forced to not talk about how we're struggling through that. And I think the struggle is what we connect with the most. I think that I often say on the podcast, like, the valleys in people's lives are where I find the most connection. I can't connect on those peaks. I don't know what it's like to win an Oscar and then maybe I never will. But I do know what it feels like when you can't get out of bed because something is just so hard. And the more that we tell those parts of our stories, not in a sad way, but just say in a realistic way, I think the more we give permission for other people to not feel ashamed about those things or to feel like bad, that they're struggling through something like that's just part of life. And like. We share it and other people will feel less alone. They might also feel inspired to kind of move through it. You know, so I think keep doing what you're doing. But also just anyone listening like to share your story with people you know and connect with others, because that's the way we may get through this crazy little thing we call life. No big deal. I absolutely love what you said about being able to connect and relate more to the valley than the peaks. We get to be in the space of connection and alignment and just being able to see each other for who we are as humans and for this life experience. Thank you for that analogy. I'm going to hang on to that one. That was very good. And as a final question, what would Matt today say to Matt at eight years old? I don't. That's funny that you asked that because that's what I ask my people as largely on my podcasts. And I don't know that there's anything that I could say to eight year old that I think that he would need to know. That. He was loved and he didn't have to do anything. Earned that love from anyone around him like he can just be and do things. And I think I don't know that I would understand that at eight. I don't know that I would absorb that. But I wish I hadn't absorbed some of those fear of abandonment issues and the perfectionist piece. And if I could just like plant a seed in his head and say, like, just be you do what you need to do, have fun, and don't worry about failing or making mistakes because that's part of life. I just didn't realize that. So I think I would want to plant that seed. He wouldn't listen, but I would plan. For later. Save this for later. And bonus question this note in your pocket. You'll need this in a few years. Bonus question What would Matt today say to Matt after Mike you actually losing making? Just go through it. I think I. I think I did it right. I think I. Think I know now that all the feelings are okay and that going out to dinner that same night was okay because I was trying to protect myself and like crying and breaking down the next day was okay and telling people that I was a mess also okay. So I don't think I can tell this version of that. I think I did it right. I think it was hard. But I don't think there's anything that I regret about the way that I did that. So say, like, just just feel it. Go through it. Beautiful and well. Thank you for sharing your story and what grief has looked like and all these different stages and all these different versions we learn from each one. So thank you so much for your time, for being you, for your amazing work. Please, if you're listening or watching, check out the Life Support Podcast. I'll link everything and thank you my for all that you're doing. It has been an absolute honor to have you here today. Thank you for what you're doing and. Thanks again. Thank you. That's it for today's episode. Be sure to subscribe to the Grief and Light podcast. I'd also love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and your stories. Feel free to share them with me at my Instagram page at Grief and Light. Or you can also visit Grief and Light dot com for more information and updates. Thank you so much for being here, for being you. And always remember, you are not alone.