Bridging the GriefSpan after Losing Her Brother & Parents in Five Years | Moira Khan

Join us for a powerful conversation with Moira Khan, a Certified Grief Educator and creator of GriefSpan, an online grief support community. After losing her mother, brother, and father within just five years, Moira faced the immense challenge of being the last remaining member of her immediate family.

***
Click here to watch the video on YouTube
***

In this episode, she reflects on the impact of these losses on her identity and her decision to start anew in Madrid. Moira shares how her grief journey inspired her to become a grief educator, emphasizing the importance of community, support, and honoring the memories of loved ones. Through GriefSpan, she offers one-on-one support, helping others find meaning in their grief.

Tune in as Moira encourages us to lean into our grief, share our stories, and discover the strength in vulnerability.

Takeaways:

• Grief can be a challenging personal journey, especially when experiencing multiple losses within a short period of time.
• Leaving loved ones behind when moving to a new country can be difficult, but sometimes taking a chance on oneself is necessary.
• The loss of immediate family members can redefine one's sense of identity and create a heaviness in carrying forward the family name.
• Remembering and honoring loved ones through storytelling and rituals is important for keeping their memory alive.
• Teaching children about grief and allowing them to witness and express emotions is crucial for their emotional development. Allowing oneself to feel and express grief is important for healing.
• Accepting the loss of loved ones is a journey that takes time and can be up and down.
• Relating to others who have experienced similar losses can provide comfort and validation.
• Leaning on others for support and asking for help is crucial in navigating grief.
• Sharing stories and experiences can help others on their grief journey.

Connect with Moira Khan:

• @griefspaneducation
• Website & 1:1 Sessions
• Facebook

Connect with Nina Rodriguez:

• @griefandlight
• griefandlight.com
• 1:1 Support
• Subscribe to my newsletter

Disclaimer: griefandlight.com/safetyanddisclaimers

Chapters

• 0:00 Preview & Intro song
• 0:28 Introduction, Meet Moira Khan
• 3:45 Losing her mother and brother
• 11:50 Moving to Madrid
• 13:48 Becoming the Sole Survivor
• 16:09 Grieving through the Lock Down
• 17:49 The lineage ends with me
• 19:23 Moira's relationship with grief
• 23:33 Redefining identity after loss
• 27:51 Keeping their memory alive
• 30:19 Acceptance and the heartbreak of what will never be
• 34:34 How they passed shapes your grief experience
• 36:35 Grief Work and the birth of Grief Span
• 44:58 They live on through me
• 47:34 Grief Community
• 50:00 I'm here because I can relate to you
• 53:10 Lean on People
• 55:24 Connect with Moira
• 58:44 Final Thoughts

Transcript

griefandlight (00:00.854)
given anything to have my parents and brother here still. This is their story. This is their journey. They're just living on for me and the kids too. I think it's a nice way to be able to carry your grief. You just lost your loved one. Now what? Welcome to the Grief in Life podcast where we explore this new reality through grief -colored lenses. Openly, authentically, I'm your host, Nina Rodriguez. Let's get started.

Welcome back everybody. Today I am thrilled to be joined by Moira Khan, a certified grief educator from New Zealand who has journeyed through profound loss, including the death of her mother, brother, and father in only a five year span. Now living in Madrid, Moira has channeled her passion for helping others into her work as a grief coach, an educator, and a community curator.

She created grief span, an online community supporting grievers, as well as an expat community called Roaming Mamas. Moira, thank you so much for being here today. And I would like to give you a very warm welcome to the Grief and Life podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Nina. It's really lovely to be here. It's a pleasure. And I'm so thrilled that we connected through our online community, actually. You have this beautiful curated page. And we also connected through Kara, Get Griefy, who's done an amazing job of

kind of centralizing all these scattered pieces of us that are in the virtual world. got a knack. She's amazing. Yes. And so you're currently in Madrid, correct? Amazing. Yeah, we've been here about six years now. We actually moved from the UK, which was where I was for about 12 years when I started my travels when I left New Zealand.

And New Zealand was my home for about 29 years before I started packing up and leaving. It's one of those things that Kiwis do a lot of is travel overseas and do the OEE thing. But I just never went back to live anyway. One, because I met my husband in London. Sorry, that was nice. That's a good excuse. Yeah, I thought that was a good enough excuse. But unfortunately, that of course meant that...

griefandlight (02:14.552)
sort of left my family in New Zealand, which you know, you always take that risk when you're, you know, leaving countries and moving around the world and those kinds of things, not knowing if you'll ever go back. So leaving your loved ones behind is not always easy, but you know, you also have to live your life. it's, yeah. So that was what my story was there in terms of being here because my husband actually got a job in Spain and the kids were very little then. I've got a little girl who's nine and a little boy who's six.

and they were quite little when we moved here. So it's been the most amazing transition for us and different lives. And we just love it. It's awesome here. That's amazing. Well, we were chatting before. I absolutely love Madrid and it's such a beautiful space to live. So I'm glad that you get to enjoy it and thrive and live your life there. And like you said, it's in the spirit of taking risks and living life and you know.

moving through all the transitions expected and unexpected and that's a big, change. So kudos to you and for braving that change. It's not easy to just let go of everything and just, you know, decide to take a chance on yourself. And I think that's pretty, I always admire that trait and people. So I admire that in you, but unfortunately a lot of this story is not all happy. It's, you know, been a very challenging personal journey, especially with the loss of

What you could say is your entire immediate family, which crushes my heart just to hear it. And I know how incredibly difficult that could be. So tell us how that happened or start wherever you'd like. Sure. So back in 2014 when I was still living in the UK, my mom had always been ill. She was the first in my family to go, like immediate family. And so there was only me, my brother and my dad growing up.

in New Zealand and my mum had suffered quite a lot. Ever since she was about 30, she'd got rheumatoid arthritis. So the whole time I was growing up, she was generally not physically well. Everything else was fine, but she really suffered a lot with not being able to be very active and not doing a lot. So as a kid, I kind of adjusted to that life of, you know, my mum wasn't so active, but my dad was okay. He was pretty good.

griefandlight (04:35.586)
He had some health challenges too, but nothing physical to begin with anyway. So my mum, she'd been in and out of hospital, but nothing what we would have considered life -threatening. And at the time when I had got the call from dad, or typically parents don't tend to want to worry you, and my dad hadn't told me that my mum was going into hospital, she'd been sort of, I guess she was, she was rushed in one day, and my dad told me a couple of days later.

But again, we didn't think it was life threatening and this kind of progressed over a series of about three, four days. But it was only about two weeks prior to that, that I had run mum and dad to tell them the most amazing news that we were pregnant for the first time. we've been trying for two years. yeah, complete different. Yeah, it all just turned around so quickly. So after about, mum had been in the hospital for about a week, I think it was, and it just had this.

gut feeling and I said to my husband, I said, I need to go. I need to get on the flight. And of course he was worried about me being pregnant, FF pregnancy, all of that stuff and high risk. And yeah, so, but it just, I just had to go. I just had this gut feeling something wasn't right. I'd spoken, I'd been speaking to my mum on the phone, you know, sort of in and out when she was in hospital, but I could hear she wasn't right. And of course she was like, no, you can't get on the plane. don't want I'm just coming.

But in that time I got on the flight and it was the worst flight of my life. Like seriously, I was so sick. It was 30 hours or 27, 30 hours worth of just, yeah, not gonna deny it was pretty hard. I got there and during the time of flight, she was actually getting worse and she declined and they shifted my flight from another airport to directly into the airport where the hospital was. So all of this was going on. And so by the time I got to the hospital, my brother was there. He picked me up in the hospital. We got there.

doctors told us pretty much the worst news and said that she wasn't gonna pull through. My mom had already decided, she was so proud. She was an amazing mom, but she was one of those very proud, not, I can't be a burden on anyone. She would never have gone into a home. And she already decided that she wasn't gonna be a burden on anyone. She didn't wanna be incubated. She didn't know what was the outcome if she came out of that. So she'd already decided that this was her time as much as that was.

griefandlight (06:56.462)
devastating and heartbreaking for us to hear. We had to respect her wish and she was just, she was tired. Her body was giving up, she got pneumonia. It just wasn't her, you know, it was her time and she was only 74. So we sat with her and over a space of two days. So I had made it in time and two days later it was, yeah, that was it. Talk about so much going on at once and you know, like the joy of your pregnancy, but also this very deep knowing.

And, you know, looking back on it, I would imagine you're so glad that you followed that intuition, that very strong intuitive call to just say, you know what, against all odds, let me just do this. Because you didn't know necessarily this was going to happen, but something in you knew that this was important for you to be there. Yeah, and I just, I think having to do that trip solo as well, because my husband couldn't go directly at that time because he needed to get a special visa for New Zealand.

So he had to wait a week before he could come, but by that time he didn't make it in time for her, but he got there in time for the funeral. So yeah, it wasn't, you know, I was supporting my dad and my dad was quite ailing at that stage. So he was, he was in a wheelchair at that stage. She couldn't walk, but he was physically, you know, he was mentally brilliant, but he was, yeah. mean, they just missed their 50th wedding anniversary as well. It was two months shy of their 50th wedding anniversary, which is absolutely gutting because we'd made plans to go for that.

special occasion, but unfortunately they didn't make it. But they made 50 years together, you know, that was still amazing. So that was Mum in 2014 and then I got pregnant. I had Lara in 2015 and I hadn't grieved Mum the whole time I was pregnant really. I just kind of put it aside because I was dealing with pregnancy and becoming a first time mum, but it really, really hit me as soon as I had Lara.

Nine months after that, I went on antidepressants. I was going through counseling. It was just, yeah. And then when Lara was nine months old, I went back to see my dad and we spent Christmas with him. And he got to see Lara, which was really lovely. And then having to pull myself away from him again, but we had to put him in a home about a year later. So I had to go back again and put him in a home. Meanwhile, I'm doing all of this because my brother's starting to...

griefandlight (09:25.164)
go downhill health -wise because he developed a heart issue. Was your brother in New Zealand with your parents at the time? Yeah, he wasn't living near my parents at the time. again, I struggled a little bit with my... Since I was a teenager, my brother had become ill as well.

It feels a little bit like there's a real trend here, but it just happened to be that my mum and dad and my brother weren't well pretty much my entire time growing up. But my brother developed bipolar. He got really sick with other ailments and things. So he had a rough time from my 20 to 10, 80 years onwards. But the heart issue was, we thought it was one of those things where he would have surgery and he would get better.

Unfortunately, so 2017, 2016, I was the last time I saw him. And then a few months later, he went into surgery, had heart surgery, thought he was getting better, but it wasn't fully recovered. He wasn't fully recovered 100%. They said it had worked about 60%, but he was still having issues. I had another baby in the meantime, so we had our second one. We moved house. It was just all.

All that one. And six weeks after my son was born, I got a phone call from his fiance at the time, his fiance's daughter, not my brother's daughter, but his stepdaughter. And I'll never forget the call at 11 o 'clock at night. And I was feeding my little one Asher at the time. And she said, he's gone. I was like, what do you mean he's gone? She said, Alice is gone.

He had a massive heart attack in a hotel on his own. One morning they couldn't raise him or get him out of the hotel and they just, yeah, they found him in the shower. yeah, he had it. Luckily it was quick. So I couldn't give that much of a blessing, but yeah, so that was a complete another curve ball and shop. And I just went into full grief mode again and I just, yeah, what do you even know? I'm so sorry. Thank you. No, that's, you know,

griefandlight (11:47.958)
After that, was when we decided to move to Spain because we'd already thought about it before, but when I was pregnant and we're moving house, it wasn't really a go. And then after my brother died, I just, and my mom, it was just too much. The UK was also a lot of memories as well. My parents were both from there. So I was surrounded by all of their life there. I don't know, it seemed right.

when my husband got that offer to go to Madrid and come here, it was just a chance to start afresh. It was why not when the kids are so young, the language. To be honest, I don't know you said before about it's brave to do that, but I honestly think I just thought, son, Madrid. It'll be cool, but honestly, I never really thought much about the language issue. just kind of just, packed up the house.

the truck and everything else and stuck our whole lives on a truck and just went and I kind of didn't really I just thought about the rest later. was just bizarre. Sometimes not knowing is you know the thing you need. Sometimes not knowing is actually it works in our favor. sometimes just taking the leap is just what you need and I think in grief too you you tend to make a few rash decisions maybe hoping that you'll find

some relief or something that will stop you from thinking about this awful tragedy that you're going through. It did help. I don't like to think I was running away as such, but sometimes we do need that shift and that change. My dad always used to say this. His favorite line was, calibration. He'd recalibrate everything. Sometimes we just need to take back and start and recalibrate. That was his favorite line.

But after we got to Madrid, things were starting to sort of stabilize a little bit, but I knew dad wasn't going great. About a year after we got here, I ended up having to go back again to New Zealand, but this time I took the kids with me and they were still quite little. I took them on my own because we had to move them into palliative care. He was going downhill quite fast.

griefandlight (14:08.204)
So I did that trip on my own. was only about two weeks and had the kids with me because I wanted them, if this was going to be the last time I got to do this trip to see him, then I wanted it to be a memory that least he got to meet the kids. He'd already met Lara once, but actually he hadn't. So it was nice to have that memory. So I did that trip on my own and moved him into the palliative care. And then I got back and things were...

Physically not great with me either. was going through, I have a condition called Alice Danlos syndrome and over the years I've had many, many surgeries. So my physical ailments haven't been great and so I've had to manage that, moving to a new country, parents passing, brother passing. And so it all, you know, it has been a journey for sure. And nine months after I got back from putting my dad in care, he was going downhill pretty fast and

I'd already had to make the decision to go into a foot surgery that was quite urgent, so I had to go. And I know, knowing the risk I was taking, knowing that I couldn't get on a flight for at least two months. sure enough, Christmas Eve of 2019, Dad decided that that was time. So yeah, that was another one where I wasn't there for it.

It just, yeah, so my brother or my dad, I wasn't there for either of them and or able to be part of the funerals or even my dad, because of course I was the only one left at that stage. I couldn't do it. There was no one else to do a funeral for him and I wanted to be there, you know. So I'd already organized sort of, I was making plans after he'd gone to go in the April and do his memorial, have farewell. We had to have, you know, he was already cremated and things, but I just had to do that.

The ceremony aspect of it, you know, the fancy Exactly, exactly. Yeah, just that part. But then guess what? COVID hit. So I wasn't able to, by the time I was ready to fly and I was getting clearance to fly, COVID hit. And it was, so yeah, I felt like I got stuck in a year and a half worth of just limbo, breathing, lockdown. We had a really hard lockdown here too. We had a hundred days of not allowed to even really, we had 40 days of not going anywhere. We weren't even allowed to leave the house.

griefandlight (16:29.674)
And then the rest remainder was, yeah, we had walks and stuff, but it was pretty tough. know, two little ones, husband working at home, you know, was just grief. It just snowballed. Multiple forms of grief, definitely. That's definitely a lot. And I would like to pause for a moment and give you the opportunity, if you would like, if it were to serve you to say their names and just take a second to remember them. if you would like. Thank you. That's really sweet.

Yeah, my mum was Margaret Elizabeth and Lara has her middle name as her middle name. So she's Lara Elizabeth. My dad was Anthony John and my brother was Alastair Paul and my family name was Waters. yeah, my maiden name was Laura Waters. yeah, so unfortunately that name has kind of now come to a sort of a standstill because I

changed my name and my brother never had any kids of his own. yeah, that lineage is sort of stopped now with the water's name, but that's okay. That's, know, just one of those things. We honor them this way, you know, this is how we get to remember them and they in a way live on through these stories and through saying their names. So taking this moment to just kind of, you know, remember them. And I always light a candle. think it's back here somewhere to just remember our people. you touched on something that's very personal to me, very, very personal. My family is

similar in composition in terms that it's mom, dad, brother, and myself. And we were talking before I lost my brother. And so this whole identity, like who are you now, is so layered and nuanced. And my parents, thankfully, are still alive. But one thing that I think about in ways extremely heavy on me, ways so heavy on me, is, for example, I don't have children. And I thought my brother wouldn't have children and he didn't.

And so the family name, that's something I struggle with. you know, it's very heavy in my heart that once my parents pass, if you look at it as a family tree, that branch ends with me. And that's very heavy to carry forward. Sometimes that's something that I struggle with. Now you have children and yes, you know, they still live on in a way with your children, but there's a heaviness there. And I want to highlight it just because if you're listening or watching and you can identify yourself in these stories.

griefandlight (18:49.58)
I just want to acknowledge that that is something worthy of grieving. That is something worthy of taking a look at it and saying, yeah, sometimes that can be very painful. That's a painful reality. And yet life goes forward. But these are the things in grief that are so nuanced that sometimes sting a little bit or a lot as we navigate our lives. I saw myself reflected in that part of your story. And I was like, wow, that's something that weighs on my shoulders as well. So I see you.

And I see, I see that. Thank you. Thank you very much. And, and I want to ask you, what was your understanding of grief before all this happened? So even before your mother died, is it something that you even were familiar with or you learned it, you know, when your daughter was born? I think you said your first daughter was born. That's when everything kind of got triggered and moving within. Yeah, it's interesting you asked that question because if I had said to myself,

had I experienced grief before my mom passed? Yes, I had, but I don't think I really identified with it as a real struggle. It's a difficult one because I lost my grandparents. My mom and dad were both expats in New Zealand as well. So, mom had left all her family in England and my dad, his parents moved to New Zealand, but I lost my granddad.

when I was eight and then my grandmother when I was 17. And I actually was with her when she passed. I watched her. And so she was of a ripe age of 91, which was a great page. But I wasn't particularly close to them as grandparents. I think I was closer to other family friends that mom and dad had made as a result of being expats. We had some amazing family friends through.

Mum was Baptist, she was religious. And so I grew up in church and we had a lot of church family and church family life and they became my family. And I had a particularly close relationship with what I called them then was Auntie Chris and Uncle Keith and they were, he lived to a ripe old age of 99. But unfortunately his wife didn't. But they were like my grandparents, even though they weren't blood.

griefandlight (21:14.838)
I was more devastated actually when they passed, I think. died after, yeah, we've gotten Papa as well. He died after my mum died, but I still, I think I didn't really experience grief properly until mum passed, even though she lost her parents, but she never talked about it. You know, she never really, know, dad lost his parents. I never really got to feel grief in the home.

or be exposed to it that much. I never really knew how sad mum was because she didn't talk about it. Dad didn't talk about it much either. He had a bit of a thought relationship with mum as well. So it was never really evident to me grief until I lost mum, I don't think. it feels like a blur when it first happens. And I think the most poignant moment I realized that mum was gone was

Directly it was in the week of after when Lara was born and I was having real struggles with breastfeeding and I just I lost it. I just couldn't and actually my husband's mom was there at the time and she Had we hadn't met before either that was the weird part is that I hadn't met his mom up until the point where our daughter was born which was You know, some people would seem, you know perceived as a little bit odd, but you know, we just hadn't got around to it

got that stable we'd met and she knew birth, she's an obstetrician, she's familiar with all of that stuff. But she couldn't understand or get her head around how I was in so much pain and crying so much with my mom because I wanted and I needed her in that moment. So yeah, I think that even though was the first year that was the toughest, my brother, different story again.

I don't, I mean, my heart goes out to you so much when you talk about your brother. You know, and it just even, you know, that only sibling thing is really painful. And even though my brother and I were very, very different, he was a protector, you know, he was a really big brother. That's beautiful. And it changes. Initially, let me phrase this carefully.

griefandlight (23:38.848)
Initially, it could feel like it changes our identity. remember, know, grief shifts how we show up in the world and how we redefine our sense of identity. have heard and, you know, let me know if this has been your experience. I have heard people who've lost both parents say like, well, now I feel like an orphan in the world. Like, who do I go to? Right. And I found that so jarring because I was like, no, you're you always have your parents. And yet I haven't been through that experience. So I wouldn't know.

I wouldn't want to correct them in their truth if that's how they feel. And so for me, when I lost my brother, I went back to work. And one of my colleagues, she was just going off about something random. And then she says, well, now that you're an only child, what are you going to do with? And her words faded into the background. What did you just say? And that was the first time that I realized that maybe I am an only child now, right? And it distorted my sense of

identity so severely. I think I even went home early, I can't remember. But I felt just this very tight knot in my stomach because I said, wait, does this redefine, does their loss redefine who I am, my sense of being? And that thought was so terrifying because the foundation is already so unstable and shattered and disorienting and all the things. There's so much to do logistically for the burial and the memorial and decisions, decisions with their things.

And on top of that, we have to say, and I'm this and I'm that and all these labels that I don't feel belong to me. you know, and it took me a while and I would like to know your experience, but it took me a while to digest those thoughts, come to terms with those thoughts, understand those thoughts and say, no, I am still his sister. He's still my brother.

We still have a relationship. It took me a while to get there, but now I can solidly say I am not an only child. am, by technicality, yes, I will probably have to bury my parents alone and all these things. However, I don't feel like an only child and I think that matters more. And you shouldn't, you know, there's so much to remember from when we were, you know, when we were children and our memories of.

griefandlight (25:57.886)
That's what keeps me going sometimes because even though we weren't that close, we had some great times together. Those are the things that we can hang on to. If I'm being completely honest with you, my brother probably wouldn't have seen old age because he was so sick. He had struggled for a long time. I feel like he's relieved in so many ways.

without sounding, it's a hard one because I knew how sick he was. He was really sick. I didn't know, mean, mum was already gone at that stage. also mum and him had a fought relationship towards the end as well because she, my mum had seen my brother through so many trials and tribulations throughout his life. And yet their relationship wasn't great towards the end before she passed.

And so I hope, I like to think now that I hope that they're together, worked all that out. that's, you know, there was a reason they, you know, they got together again and he's not in pain anymore. They're both not in pain anymore. You know, they've been through so much in their life, you know. That's not to say anybody should go the time they go. He was only 47, you know, and it's, it's young, it's too young. I thought 74 was young. My mum was.

But it's just one of those things. And I'm coming up 47 next year and I think, unfortunately these thoughts do go through your mind. But I do everything to try and counteract that. And I do lots of things that I know my mum and dad didn't do health -wise. And it's just that it weren't physically able. So I try and keep on top of all of that stuff. But it was just his time, unfortunately.

It still hurts a lot, but I see videos. He was so good with kids too. When he first got to meet Lara, he was besotted. I'm so glad I've got videos of him with her so that she knows who her uncle was. It was his birthday a couple of weeks ago. He was born in 1970.

griefandlight (28:21.378)
The morning of his birthday, woke up and she'd put a little, this is how much I talk about my lost ones, you know, my loved ones. She'd put a candle out with his photo next to it and a happy birthday sign below the candle. That is precious. I think that's, you know, for a nine -year -old to do that. And that makes me know that I'm doing okay telling them about their family that's gone.

but still here, you know, they're still with us. And I'm actually quite proud of that. I usually play down things a little bit, but I'm actually really proud of that because I think it's to keep their memory alive by talking about it. Like I said, my mum never talked about any of this and I cry in front of my kids. I embrace the moments that I am grieving, even though they might not be that pretty.

I still, you know, I think it's important to tell them and show them how much, you know, grief is okay. You know, because we weren't brought up with that. And that's what we're trying to change a little bit too. I completely agree. And I see it as important. I don't have children, but we can't shelter people from the reality of life and loss is a reality of life. And I feel like we wouldn't be so blindsided had we

understood it a little bit better had it been introduced as a normal part of life and what do we do in these situations and how do we handle these things the shock will always be there even with your three losses I'm willing to Say that you probably experienced them so differently for many many reasons Because they were different types of losses some you were there some you were not, know, it's it there's so much so many layers to each one, but children know if they're taught to

deal with their emotions. are built for that. Emotions are part of our human makeup. And I think it's so important to learn how to navigate them. Even just this morning, this person I was talking to, she said, you know, I just lost a pregnancy, but I don't want to cry about it. It's just not good. It's not good to cry. And while I respect where she's coming from, because that's how she feels, that's okay, we respect people's feelings. I wish...

griefandlight (30:35.008)
we would make it so okay to cry and so okay to feel it all. And I love that your daughter, for example, made a little celebration for her uncle. And how beautiful is that? Those are the little things we can do that are really big in the end. I love that. Yeah. Kudos to you. I it takes time. Thank you. I think it takes time to get to that point. I feel like the journey of accepting the fact that they're not here anymore is so

up and down all the time. we always talk about it's not linear and it's true. It's not. And it's taken me, so what is it now? It's six, seven years since my brother passed almost. And I feel like it's taken me this long to be able to talk about it openly and not get frustrated when my kids bring him up or any of their grandma or granddad.

because for a while there I just couldn't. I could talk about how I was grieving, but I couldn't accept the fact that they were talking about their grandparents because they were gone. And I just thought that was so unfair that my kids are having to grow up without grandparents. And it absolutely rips my heart when I hear the kids talking about, because you probably know this already, but Spanish culture is so ingrained with abuelos and...

The family. The extended family. My heart aches in two different places. Every time I see a grandparent outside looking after their grandkids, they do it on a regular basis every single day. And it absolutely breaks my heart that I can't give that to my kids. So we try and replace it with the friends that we've got and older friends, parents, parents of my friends and those kind of things. I know it'll never be the same.

But actually it's what I grew up with, you know, and I didn't miss out on a heap. I may have the odd twin chair in there, wishing it was different, overall, I think my mum and dad did a great job of, you know, giving us surrogate grandparents. And I'm really super grateful for that. So yeah, it does hurt a lot when, you know, and it takes a while to get to that stage of being able to talk freely about them again, accepting the fact that the kids are.

griefandlight (32:55.604)
older now and they can talk about their grandparents that aren't here and they might slip up with something that they're completely unaware of because they don't really realize. Like my son's only six still so he'll only talk about, you know, them in the present tense, which actually isn't a bad thing. You know, in a sense, we, you know, I still talk about my parents in the present tense sometimes just out of habit. Right. So I shouldn't think that it's weird that my little ones come out with

Can we go and see my uncle Alistair or can we go and see Brandon? I shouldn't think it's weird, but it still hurts. Absolutely. Tenses can be such a tricky thing to navigate, especially right after that loss. I talk about my brother is, and I catch myself saying that all the time. I used to correct myself. Now I don't. Now I'm like, he is in a way. He's not here physically, but he still is in everything that I do. He still lives on in that way.

It's all about your preference. It's all about what feels good to you and right to you. If it's helpful to you to say is or is or was, use whatever word sits right with you. is, yeah. It's not easy and we all do it at our own pace as well. And if you've had multiple griefs, I always say to, I know we'll talk about this in a second, but I treat clients on a one -to -one through grief education. some of them, I always say to them that it deshaped the grief.

whatever you experienced and obviously multiple griefs, you know, if you've had multiple griefs, sometimes you haven't grieved the first one. And, you know, the type of grief that we experience, it depends on how they passed and how you experienced it. You could have been waiting for them to go or they went suddenly or any of those scenarios. And it will always shape the way we grieve. And it has been.

different every single time for me and yet one compounded on the other makes it a completely different path all over again. it's just, there is no right way to do it. It's, you know, you can get help obviously and we can do all of these things, but it's okay to still not be okay as well. You know, there are so many times where people say, have you got through to where you got and why are you so good now? I'm I'm not.

griefandlight (35:20.076)
all the time. I'm not. I've made it past for myself. Yeah, sure. But it's not good all the time. I still miss them like crazy. I have my bad days. I get hit from the left and then the right and then, you know, I'm going put myself up again. But I let myself feel it too and I sit with it because, you know, I know I've done a lot of work too. You know, I'm quite proud of the work I've done so far and

the effort that I've put in to get where I am because, you know, I went through a really rough stage and, you know, I admit that, but it's not easy. You know what it's like. It's not easy, but it's nice to be able to say that you have come through the other side just a little bit enough to be able to function again and help others. And, you know, what you're doing is amazing. What I'm doing is amazing. We're sharing a story so that it helps and inspires others to hopefully

get through this non -choice of a club that we're in. Worst club ever. we're all here. not even the English right way of saying things, but yeah, it's just whatever. We're in a club that we didn't choose to be in. Absolutely. How did you start that journey? A lot of people talk about grief work. What did that mean for you? And how has that shifted into...

actual grief work, like you actually work in this space now. So how did it go from personal journey into the education and to the profession? I feel like there's a longer background to all of this. I don't know what it is and I can't always pinpoint how to explain it clearly or even if it makes sense. But my dad in particular has a lot to do with where I am. okay.

BriefSpan is my brief education business. About two years ago, I really started getting a passion or inkling that I really wanted to do more with my grief in terms of helping others. And I was looking for the right course, the right path, the right thing to do to get some certification or at least go on a journey of my own, if not.

griefandlight (37:40.504)
to do anything else but heal as well. I was going through therapy as well at the time anyway, but I felt like I really needed to educate myself a little bit more on what is a good way to grieve, how to get through this, how to potentially help others get through this as well. And then I sort of looked at a few and then they didn't speak to me.

And then when I came across David's, was actually by a friend of mine here who I got to know through the Expat community. She's Colombian actually. She had just done the course of David Keisler's. And I'd known of David because I'd had his books, I'd seen stuff, I'd read about him as well. And I loved his work, but I didn't realize he was doing this Greek education course. So she got me into that and I signed up in the summer last year. And I would have graduated about this time last year.

So it's about a three months commitment, which is really nice and it's a great community and you do it all online and David's great because he's there personally, you get to ask questions personally and the classes are once a week and it's really, it's a nice level, especially when you're a working mom and you're trying to juggle all sorts of other things, but you know you have this passion and goal to do something else. So it was perfect for me. And then Brief Span was already a name I had.

for about two years. I've already had an Instagram page. So was there in the background. It was kind of, you know, just simmering away, not doing anything, but I knew it was going to be one something one day. And the name Grief Span was very personal for me because my dad had a company when we were growing, when I was growing up, he and I had this little project called Time Span. And dad was a prolific writer. He was a journaler. You he was, he used to journal a lot. He was a photographer.

And he used to tell stories all the time. And so he had this little project that he used to work on called Time Span. And he turned it into a company of taking photos as well. But he used to journal these stories of historic moments and also, which I don't think I've told this to anyone before, but he used to do projects around headstones and cemeteries, which might sound a little bit bizarre to some people, but he used to photograph.

griefandlight (39:58.882)
the journey of the headstones and how it deteriorated or how it weathered over time. Really bizarre, right? When I say it out loud now. Well, it's interesting now, I'm in this space, so it's actually fascinating to me, think, and that subtle connection, subtle, not so subtle connection between, you know, his interest in the art and then now. Yeah, but it's quite, when I think about now, and it's almost like I was pulled to tell you that because of some reason, it's really...

When I think about it now, it has so much meaning, you know, and I've got all of these sort of journals of these photos of headstones and a lot of the headstones were of people that we'd lost along the way on June of their, their life friends or, you know, their, their friends and older time of their life that I knew as growing up. so yeah, that was my dad's background was he was a engineer by trade as well anyway, but he, and this fair time was this kind of all this prolific writing and.

He was so methodical about everything. So anyway, so we together, when I was growing up, we created this little logo even for timestamp and the colors were purple and green. They became like our go -to colors for all sorts of stuff. And it was kind of my dad and I's thing. And I thought that was just so cool. You know, I had this little project with my dad and it was a connection that we had. we, so we always had this role of a, you know, sort of bond of work life.

type of stuff, understanding of the world history and what's going on in the world. And he was always fascinated by world events and all those kinds of things. And he used to document these stories, hence why it was called Timespan. So when I wanted to do this brief education course and turn it into more of a helping others, briefs being kind of just, and bridges as well. So I have a bridge in my logo.

Another reason because of my dad as well, because my dad had this fascination for bridges and everywhere I went, I would take photos of these famous bridges for dad. went to know the Brooklyn Bridge, the Millennium Bridge in London, Tower of London, all of these bridges that I would take photos of and send back to dad for him. And because he was an engineer, he just loved all this stuff. So it's very, very personal. know, griefs fan has a very personal backing and story for me and passion. That's why it's been such an

griefandlight (42:22.292)
It's been easy. I wouldn't say it's easy, it's been so natural, this whole progression of BriefSans since I really kicked it off in February. And the response has been incredible. I still can't get over how lucky I've been in attracting the community that I've created and the people that have come my way, the stories I've learned, the people I've touched. I'm being chill, sorry.

No, no, I've seen your community grow so fast and it's bittersweet because sometimes I say everybody that's connecting with us usually it's because they lost somebody and yet it's a natural part of life and we may as well connect because we're all in this together. Your logo is beautiful and now even more so now that I know the symbolism behind it and that your dad's so connected to what you're doing now that is really beautiful. And for those who would like to connect, speaking of connection,

Where can they find your page? Yeah. So I have Facebook as well, but I tend to have a lot more following on Instagram. It's been my single go -to. So it's at Greavespan Education and also my website, which is just greavespan .com. so both of those. Yeah. But the website still is, it'll be always be evolving, but it's one of those things I just put up. But it's, yeah, I love it. And it's a real passion. know, the whole

creating content, I like to think I stay on the sort of more positive side of grief if that is even possible. But I like to think that, know, messages, I like to share messages of positivity when it comes to grief and where you can, where it is possible to get to. Even if you don't believe it at the time when you're in that space or wherever you are in your grief journey. It's quite, I mean, I wouldn't have, you know.

If someone had said to me six years ago, or when my mom first passed that you'll be a brief educator in 10 years time helping other people all around the world, I would have just gone, no, no way. I don't know who you're talking about. It's not me. No, wouldn't have been, you know, there's no way I could have said I could have done that. And I wouldn't have had the strength to, I wouldn't have been able to, you know, stomach any of that stuff. But now it's a real purpose. You know, I found my purpose and

griefandlight (44:42.318)
I have to confess, one client asked me a few weeks ago, he says, do you think that would you be doing this if you weren't in the situation of your mum, dad and brother passing? Probably not. My whole journey would have been completely different. No, I don't. I would have given anything to have my parents and brother here still.

But at least now I can say I'm doing something in their honor and I'm doing something to tell their story, to keep them alive. And that they're doing this. I like to think this is their story, this is their journey. And I'm just carrying it for them because there's lots of things that my dad I know would have loved. His time was enough. He was only 78 when he passed too and his mind was so sharp.

He was a writer. I still think that, you know, he could have been a published author. He was so good. But I just like to think I'm carrying that on for him. I'm carrying on my mum's story, my brother's story, but my dad, because of his writing, likes to think, right, it's where I get it from. They're just living on for me and the kids too, you know. I think it's a nice way to be able to carry your grief that way and it helps. Definitely resonate with every word.

I, you know, same and I, and everybody that I've spoken with for these podcasts and through the page and everything, they say the same thing. I've only met about one or two people who say, no, I had an interest in this, you know, just out of curiosity. Most of the people, they had a personal experience and they decided to embrace grief as part of their path forward in all kinds of ways, usually, you know, professionally, personally. And it's one of those things where we heal as we help others navigate this path. So

It's a cycle it gives and we give and we receive in this process as well. So it's very healing I don't know if you've received this question, but a lot of people ask like how could you do this? How could you talk about this all the time? And to me it's it's meeting people in their humanity and their essence in their core in their unfiltered selves and I think that's a beautiful way to meet people not the pain obviously not the loss and I think almost all of us would trade it all in in his heartbeat, but

griefandlight (47:00.194)
we're here and we may as well create something beautiful with it and give it so much meaning in a way that resonates with each of our lives. Absolutely. Like I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, when we touch people and they send us messages of how much they appreciate what we're doing and how, you know, it could be something little. Like I get a lot of comments on my Instagram, you know, thank you for sharing this. Thank you for your page. It's beautiful. Thank you for, you know, it's just incredible. it just.

I never thought I would have this impact and it's just, it's exactly what I wanted to do, you know, and it's, it's, yeah, I just feel so lucky. And like you were saying earlier about the community as well, I had no idea what I was going to come across because it's so beautiful. It is so beautiful. And I'm so grateful for that too, for, you know, all of this little crew that we've got of people that are going through exactly the same journey and the, the

similarities between some of the stories is just, it sends chills down my spine sometimes when I think, my goodness, I wouldn't have met this person. And we've got such similar paths and it's so, it gives you peace too. And I feel like the more we are sharing this, the easier my grief journey is becoming just a little bit. And the memories are coming back even more too now, I find. The more I talk about my parents, the more I talk about my brother.

I'm remembering more. was just in the kitchen just before I came on here and there was something else just getting dinner for the kids and it was just this complete random memory. New Zealand is renowned for its fish and chips and I know I'm going to get flak for the accent on that one because everybody says every time they make a kiwi they say say fish and chips. And you know we grew up with that and we would go down to the beach and that was the most simplest of things you know is the

the littlest memories that I remember of going to get a strip of chips and taking it down the beach and feeding the seagulls with my parents. You know, and it's just the little things that, you know, that just suddenly pop into your head and they don't necessarily make you cry anymore, but they just give you this really warm feeling of knowing that that was part of your upbringing and what a beautiful life it was and how grateful you are, you know, to have that life.

griefandlight (49:23.208)
and with those moments you shared with them. So I think, you know, it does get, it can get to that stage. It is possible. I never thought it would be, but it's, I do feel like, you know, it's, if anybody gets encouragement out of, you know, your podcasts and everything else, know that it is possible. You know, it is possible to get there. It definitely is. I personally believe we're not meant to do this alone though. And this is where a lot of these grief,

supporters come in, community curators, coaches, supporters, guides, mentors, all these things. So in your work, what have you seen resonating with people? What has your experience been? What is the biggest need or ask from the people that you've been working with or anything that you can share that you've encountered through your work that stands out? The biggest thing for me so far

and the people that I talk to is just, it's the fact that my situation is not therapy as such. You we can't call ourselves therapists, grief educators. And that's almost a relief for some people. This is not criticism of, you know, therapists whatsoever at all, because I've been through therapy, that's been a great help for me. But it's just more about

relating because like you said before, know, most of us are on this path because we've got something related to grief or we've been through it. So we're, you know, we're relating to the people. That's the biggest thing that people come to me. I've heard that more times than I can remember now. I am here because I can relate to you. I'm here because I just want to be heard and you understand what I'm going through.

because quite often they're in a situation where their family might, know, their partner or someone might not have lost someone yet or they haven't got friends that have lost anybody. That's another common occurrence I get as well as people that haven't lost, you know, people around them that haven't lost. So they don't understand what they're going through. And it's basically the biggest thing I think is people just need to be heard, to be validated, to have someone that understands.

griefandlight (51:43.48)
their grief and the pain that they're going through. It is such heartbreak. It is real heartbreak what we're going through. And to have someone understand that pain and just listen, it's quite often all we need. And I've had therapists before too, sure, but not necessarily being able to relate to my grief. So, and to be honest,

Not everybody's been through three losses either. So it's a little bit, and I wouldn't expect anybody to necessarily understand that. But if you can come across, and if you're in this community, it's easier to find someone that you can relate to. If you get into this community, it's priceless. It's absolutely priceless. And I am so grateful for that. So I think, yeah, that's the biggest, that would be by far the biggest thing I'd like to come across.

Definitely grief wants to be witnessed and expressed and to help each other sometimes our just full embodied presence and our willingness to sit with each other without trying to fix is so powerful. So thank you for the work that you're doing. If you were to tell the world one thing that you want people to know about grief and how to navigate it, how to support each other or

Something that is now true on your journey, like ever since you experienced grief, something that has become very true for your path, what would you say to somebody maybe early on in their grief or maybe somebody who wants to support a loved one in grief?

Early on is always difficult because it's fresh and I think if I was to go back now knowing what I know, if I would go back to when my mum first passed, it's just lean on people, lean into people. It's the biggest thing you can do despite what people may say. People will be there for you if you just lean in and ask.

griefandlight (53:48.844)
you have to ask because it's not necessarily going to fall in their laps. People don't come forward to ask because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing. And that's something else we'll, you know, can touch on another day, but it's the education of telling people how to react to people that are in grief. Because that's part of my journey as well, is educating people on that. But for those that have...

lost people recently is to lean in and lean on people like myself, know, that know what it's like. You know, this has now become a job for me, which is amazing, but I still love helping people. And people like me can be just the best listening post or if you haven't got family because, you know, I had, I was lucky because I had an amazing support network. still have my husband and kids and I have an amazing free network.

You know, that's a big blessing. I have to do a massive shout out to my friends and all of my friends around the world because honestly, I wouldn't have got through it without them. And they have to know that. And now I'm here for them on that journey. But lean in. It's the biggest thing I can say to people. It's just lean in to anyone around you. You'll be surprised how receptive people are to being asked for help. That all they want to know is just, can you listen to me?

Can you just be five minutes with me? Can you just give me a hug? Yeah. Sometimes a hug is all we need. Yes. I love that. And how can people work with you? I know that you said you shared your website. It was griefspan .com. But how can people sign on? Are you doing one on ones groups? How can you work? How can they work? I one on one.

Yeah, I do one on ones. quite easy to, I literally have a booking page on my website and on my Instagram. It's all there. It's really easy to do. And I offer an initial one to one 30 minute free consultation as well. It's really, that's really needed from both sides because quite often it's needed to know whether, you know, I'm a good fit for you or whether you, we gel and

griefandlight (56:03.63)
Also, whether you're ready to take that journey on your, whether you need the help now, you may not be ready to talk about it and that's okay. But that's the whole reason for the first 30 minutes for all is just to, and then we take you on a journey just to walk you through your grief, help you, give you tools to do that. No matter how many sessions it takes, some people take two, some people take 10. It doesn't.

really matter. It's just there's no prescribed amount. It's all what is needed for you and what you need. It's yeah. So those are the ones I will be doing groups and in a week that I haven't done yet. I'm yeah, I'm flying so fast at the moment that I'm trying to keep up with everything. But it's really amazing. Like I'm so enjoying this journey of just, you know, meeting and being on podcasts and writing articles. And yeah, I'm also in the process of signing up for a book.

as well. So, watch that space. So yeah, I'm really excited for that too. So there's lots to come. I'm sure, you know, I have so much more to give and so much more to tell and share and help. That's my main aim is to The world could use a lot more of these conversations. So thank you for answering your calling and for embracing this fully and for sharing it with the world. I'm a firm believer that the more we amplify this reality, the more we amplify these stories and share our experiences, the

better we help other people navigate, the better we help ourselves. And the more we normalize these conversations, we are going to face grief at some point in our lives. And for those of us who are in grief, there is support out there for you and it is more accessible than you think. And like Moira said, that 30 minute, I call it a vibe check, a clarity call. You know how to make sure, because not everybody knows how to handle losses the same way or not everybody relates to you the same way.

perfectly okay. There's so many of us doing this work in this space. Go with the person that resonates with you. Moira is an excellent resource. Her page is amazing. And you can basically connect with people from all over the world, which is so fascinating to me. It's so amazing to connect this intimately with people that you're meeting online for something so personal and life altering and navigate it together. And it feels like we've known these people forever.

griefandlight (58:27.722)
in a way when we connect with them, think that's very powerful. So thank you for what you're doing. And I want to give you a few minutes before we close the conversation to say anything that maybe I didn't touch on or anything that's in your heart or anything that you want people to know. This is your space to do so. Thanks, Nina. I can't think of anything at this particular moment, but I just I honestly can't resonate enough.

how grateful I am for people like you and what you do as well. you know, people like Kara, I mean, obviously those two just come to my head, but you know, people like Blair, we're all in this community together doing what we do. And I think it's just so magical, know, we, our parts and our, you know, our journeys are all sort of intertwined in some way. And for some reason we've all come together to share our pain, to share our journey. And I just think it's so magical. We're on this little

I have this little saying, we have this map and our stories are a map of our life and we should be sharing that. Who else is going to know about it if we don't share it? I think that's just the most important thing that we're sharing our journey and the hope that someone else might resonate with it and help them. That's the biggest thing, I think. Definitely.

Well, thank you for sharing your journey. Thank you for sharing your mother, father, and brother with us and for the work that you do for so many. Thank you for being you, for showing up for the work you do, and for your time here with us today. Thank you, Nina. That's it for today's episode. Be sure to subscribe to the Grief and Light podcast. I'd also love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and your stories. Feel free to share them with me via my Instagram page at griefandlight.

or can also visit griefandlight .com for more information and updates. Thank you so much for being here, for being you, and always remember, you are not alone.