GRIEF AND LIGHT

The Healing Power of Grief Dreams with Dr. Joshua Black

• Nina Rodriguez / Guest: Dr. Joshua Black • Season 3 • Episode 46

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Dr. Joshua Black, leading grief and bereavement researcher, speaker, and host of the Grief Dreams Podcast, shares his journey into the field of grief dreams (e.g., dreams of the deceased), and the profound insights they offer into the grieving process and continuing connections beyond death.

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Dr. Black also explores the statistics and research findings on grief dreams, highlighting the prevalence of positive dreams and the potential for dream recall to increase the likelihood of having a grief dream. He offers practical tips for increasing dream recall and emphasizes the importance of valuing and exploring dreams.

He discusses the cultural and religious influences on dreams and the importance of interpreting dreams from a different perspective, and emphasizes the need to be open-minded and understand that dreams can have different meanings for different individuals. Dr. Black challenges the negative connotations associated with dreams and highlights the positive impact they can have on post-traumatic growth and faith.

He also explores the concept of continuing bonds and the different types of bonds that individuals form with their deceased loved ones, emphasizing the importance of understanding attachment styles and trauma in relation to continuing bonds. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the power of love, Ram Dass' teachings, and the significance of dreams in connecting with that love.

Additional Takeaways:

  • Increasing dream recall can increase the likelihood of having a grief dream.
  • Positive dreams of the deceased are more common than negative dreams, and can provide comfort and healing.
  • Dreams can be prompted and influenced by valuing and exploring dreams, writing them down, and discussing them with others.
  • Grief dreams can be a source of meaning and connection for those who have lost a loved one. 
  • Negative connotations associated with dreams should be challenged, as dreams can have a positive impact on beliefs and faith.
  • Understanding attachment styles and trauma is crucial in forming continuing bonds with deceased loved ones.
  • Dreams can provide a powerful connection to love and can help individuals process grief and trauma.
  • Interpreting dreams should be a personal and individual process, focusing on the emotions and personal experiences associated with the dream.


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griefandlight (00:00.19)
She was in the space. It's like, the space is so amazing. I feel so, so much love here. And the deceased says, yeah, because the space is love. And then she says, but how can I feel this love if I don't love myself? And then he says, in this space, you do love yourself. And then she woke up. You just lost your loved one. Now what?

Welcome to the Grief in Life podcast where we explore this new reality through grief -colored lenses. Openly, authentically, I'm your host, Nina Rodriguez. Let's get started. Have you ever dreamt of your person in spirit and wondered if that encounter was in any way real? Today's guest is a renowned grief and bereavement researcher, speaker, and host of the Grief Dreams podcast.

With a PhD focused on dreams and continuing bonds after loss, including prenatal and pet loss, Dr. Joshua Black is one of the leading academic experts in the field of grief dreams. These dreams offer profound insights into the grieving process and continuing connections beyond death. Currently, Dr. Black serves as a bereavement initiative manager for the BC Center of Palliative Care, where he leads groundbreaking research in bereavement support. He is dedicated to

raising awareness and providing essential grief support through his extensive work. And with that, I would like to give a warm welcome to Dr. Joshua Black. Welcome to the Grief in Life podcast. Well, thank you for having me. I'm so excited about this conversation. It's one of my favorite topics. And I actually learned about your work through Kathy Wagner. was interviewing her. She's the author of Here With You. And she shared a dream that she had with her son. You recorded a beautiful episode with her.

I found your podcast and I could not stop listening to the episodes. They are so fascinating. So thank you for your work. Tell us how you even got started in this space. How do you become a grief dream researcher? Good question. think, you know, it's really like the lived experience usually, right? For most people that really drives their path in life. And for me, I didn't set out to do this. It wasn't something that was ever on my mind or someone told me this would be a good path.

griefandlight (02:15.168)
It wasn't in your bingo cards. No, it wasn't there. I wanted to be an elementary school teacher and that was sort of my passion for a long time. And you my parents kind of pushed me that way too. And so that was kind of my path. And then when I was in undergrad, my dad suddenly died. And in that moment, I felt the deep grief for the first time. After someone you care about died. And it kind of transformed my journey in so many ways.

When it comes to the grief dreams aspect, it was such a powerful part of why I'm here today and how I got, I guess, integrated the loss in my life. Because the first moments of hearing the news and then going to the funeral, I was a wreck and you you'd expect someone to be. But for me, I've never really cried like that before. It was kind of scary. I didn't have the support around me. I didn't know what to do. I needed to go back to school.

to finish the degree and I needed to go back to work. And so I just really wanted to get rid of it, to push it away and push it down. And I was able to do that, which is kind of amazing that you can. But what happened was my whole, color came out of my world. And so I was almost like a zombie just like doing what you need to do. You look good, but inside you're dead, right? Like there's nothing really going on in there. And it's like, just, you know, this black and gray world. And it was only three months later that I had this dream of my father. kind of

changed everything and put the color back into my life. And it was a very simple dream, but one of the most profound experiences I've ever had waking or dreaming. Just like, just in general. And so I was sitting in the dream, I was sitting on my bed and I looked to the left and I see my dad in my room and he was looking through some of my stuff. And then I get up and I walk to him and I know I said, he's just, there's just a feeling of lightness. And he had a lot of addiction issues in life, a lot of trauma.

And so he always had this heaviness to him. But in the dream, wasn't if he felt like this lightness to him for the first time I've ever felt that from him, which I thought was very unique. So I walked up to him and I said, I'm going to miss you acknowledging the loss. And then I said that I loved him and we hugged and I woke up. And when I woke up, I said like something changed in me because I woke up completely different. The grief has wasn't as it once was.

griefandlight (04:39.37)
I could honor him, could regulate my emotions again, I could feel joy. And I remember sitting at the edge of my bed and just thinking, what was that? Because I didn't even interpret the dream yet, but I could feel the change within me. And so the dream itself changed me from within, and I'm just trying to figure out what's going on. And so I always sort of held that such a beautiful and special experience for me on my journey. And I never really thought too much of it. Like I knew it changed me. I didn't really tell many people about it. I didn't ask dreams about other people.

But just as my journey went forward, got into, had an interview to go to Teachers College and just didn't feel right. And so I denied that and I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew that wasn't the path anymore. And then, so I decided to volunteer at a hospice and basically do some brief met groups and one -on -ones with people. And they kept having these questions on dreams. And like, I never told them about mine. It's just like, you know, life has a funny way of organically like giving you direction.

And insights. And so they were asking these questions and for me I only had these positive ones but they were asking why haven't I had a dream, they were asking why am I having these negative dreams, what does this dream mean, you know, all this sort of stuff. And you tell like the questions that they were asking, they were then also complicating their own grief at their own answers on what it could be. And so was like, like I wonder what the literature says. And so when I went back to literature, this really wasn't anything for them to really provide them understanding and comfort. And so that's sort of when I said, I wonder, I wonder if this is my path. I wonder if I could

do a master's or even a PhD on this topic. And so it was a real challenge. took a lot of courage because I wasn't trying to be a researcher. Everyone has a plan, so people just love that. And for me, it wasn't a plan. So I really had to redevelop my identity and also persevere some great struggles because I was starting in a deficit, I would say, when it comes to a lot of the research methodology, statistics, that sort of stuff. I had the grades for it, but just...

You know, once you do a course, you kind of forget about it if that's not your passion. so it took a lot of, a lot of work, but you know, here I am. I was able to find someone to be able to do my masters with at first, which was amazing. And I found someone too, that was able to do my PhD with, and I think it was just phenomenal because without them, I wouldn't be doing this for sure, because you need a supervisor that actually will allow you to do a topic that hasn't been looked at that they haven't looked at. so.

griefandlight (07:00.108)
You know, like not many people are willing to do that because usually you have to do what your supervisor is doing in the realm. so both were interested in dreams, both supervisors, but just they had their own experience with these dreams that got them interested in what I was talking about and what I wanted to research. It was a beautiful path that kind of opened up a lot of different doors and I just been raising awareness ever since. Well, thank you for answering the call to walk on that path because to my knowledge.

Are there more dream researchers that you're aware of? Are you the only one in this space? So there are dream researchers in general. Right. I'm not many in, I there's only one or two in Canada. But when it comes to this topic, there's very few. A lot of people, what they do is they're majoring in a certain other field and they'll touch on the topic and then they go back to the field. They have some interest in it, but they'll just do a one -off. And so no one's actually pursuing and trying to figure out more and more of this stuff. And so there were some small studies here and there.

Now I'm seeing some more studies coming out, which is nice. I would feel I have the most publications within this area. But that's just because of the interest I have and I have a great passion and love for it. Trying to figure this out because it comes from a personal note, but also I'm really trying to help the bereaved. I think that's where a lot of my questions lie in. It's like, how can I help the bereaved understand that topic to be able to provide a little more guidance on their brief journey rather than, I'm a researcher. This is interesting. I'm to touch on this and then I'm going to move on.

or I'm gonna do something else because I'm interested in it. I'm really trying to do research that actually will help individuals in waking life. And thank you for that. And going back a little bit, sorry for the loss of your father. And I really like how you use that analogy of the color was sucked out of my life. Like everything was black and white, just very gray. And after the dream, there was some color that came back into your life. As you know, I've experienced dreams of my own and for the listeners and everybody watching, I will be doing a separate interview with

Dr. Black on his podcast, so stay tuned. Better yet, go to his podcast, subscribe. Subscribe to this one as well and stay tuned for the stories because they're amazing. But it does bring an element of connection, at least it did for me, when it happened because to have a dream where you get to see them again, there is no other way to see your person again other than in the space. It is magical. It can be magical. It could also be

griefandlight (09:18.304)
you know, traumatizing in some cases, depending on the, on the nuance of it, which we'll talk about later. But, but thank you for answering the call. Thank you for your research. Before we get into the nitty gritty, let's talk broadly. What is a grief dream? How do you define that? You know, it's probably better to classify as like a bereavement dream, but most people didn't know how to, what bereavement meant or how to spell it. So we went to grief dream. and so it just basically these dreams that we can

have after someone that we care about dies. And so there's three different forms that this can take. So one can be that the dream reflects the waking life struggles that we're going through. And so the deceased isn't in the dream or they're not mentioned. So this could be like running by a mountain and the mountain collapses on you and it just represents the heaviness of waking life and the grief on you. Then you have the second form, which is someone mentions the deceased within the imagery. It's not that the deceased isn't part of it.

But or there's reference to the deceased in some way. So this could be your visiting the hospital where they died at. It could be an angel talking to you about the deceased. It could be another character talking to you about the deceased and your loss or your grief. And so you can tell it definitely represents the grief in general and what you're going through. And then the last one is what most people want to talk about. And that's where most of my research is focused on is the dreams actually have the deceased present within the imagery.

And that is where you can have these very beautiful, profound experiences, but also you can have said like some really terrifying nightmares that really keep people from progressing within their grief journey. Cause it just re -traumatizes them and keeps them really being afraid to go to go to sleep for the most part. then sleep deprivation really hinders the grief journey, as you know. So thank you for making those distinctions because in my initial understanding, the grief dream was really just dreaming about your person.

In most contexts I've heard of, it's usually a positive thing. So I haven't heard anybody say, or very few people say like, it was a negative experience. Most people generally say it's been a good thing. Deep dive into some of the research. What have you found? Well, the first that we're looking at was, is it even common? We didn't really even know. I had mine, supervisor had theirs. But like how common actually is it to have a dream of the deceased?

griefandlight (11:34.414)
And so when we looked at that, we looked at different samples. So after spells of loss, was 86 % of individuals had a dream of the deceased within the first year or two. After pet loss, it was 78 % and that was within the first six months. And then after miscarriage, this is fascinating, 57 % had a dream of the deceased baby that they'd never actually met, which I thought was really fascinating. That was within the first year.

And so there has also been another study, not by me, but someone else, but children can also have these experiences and 55 % of children within this abbreviated camp stated they had a dream of the deceased. So it's just understanding that there's a significant amount of people that you're going to run into that are grieving that will have one of these experiences. And one would think that as you become further away from the initial.

death of the individual, you'll have a more likely chance of dreaming of the deceased as time goes on. You know, it's not all the time you get it right away. Like mine took three months to have my first one. I know people it took me a year or two before they had their first one. And we're still trying to figure out exactly why is that? Like why are some people having it very soon? Other people aren't, you know, there's different factors that may go into that, but it's still, you know, still very unknown and like the timing of things, but the timing seems to be very significant on when these dreams can happen for people.

And as you said, one of the interesting aspects of these dreams is that we went in, like me and my supervisor, she was a trauma researcher, which is really helpful to me in this area. I had a positive dream, she had a negative dream. And so we went in thinking that people probably had more negative dreams of the deceased because Western research basically says that dreams reflect our waking life. So, and that's probably the continuing hypothesis. So if.

you're let's say sad before bed or you're angry or you're like frustrated or have anxiety, you're have more negative dreams. But if you're happy and joyful, you're gonna have more positive dreams, given we're in grief. And just typically in general, like we would expect to have more negative dreams. And just in the research in general, people typically have more negative dreams, even without grief or whatever, just because life is so hard and we have love anxiety before bed. Then after trauma, your dreams become even more consistently negative.

griefandlight (13:45.824)
And so we were expecting something like that when we went in, but what we found was actually very shocking is that basically when the deceased is a part of the imagery, those tend to be more positive images and more comforting images, which it goes against typical dream research. So there's something else going on within this. So it goes against typical research, which is why I think people can really have these fascinating

interpretations of these dreams and it can change them in such a different way. Like something else is going on than what we would typically understand from these dreams. So some people will say they're visitations. Some people will say maybe it wasn't, but the dream was more vivid and real than they ever had. So it's acting differently than what we would expect. So in the research, when we asked that all the different samples, even after pet loss, the spells of loss, what's fascinating is around 92 % of those who dreamt stated that they had a positive dream of the deceased and that could be seeing them healthy or happy.

also acting or speaking in a that's comforting. And then when we asked them about negative themes that they had, which is the individual, the deceased dying again or being dead in the imagery or acting in ways that was causing them to be upsetting, like chasing him or something or causing them have guilt, 44%. So there's still a big chunk of people who having these negative dreams. But what was interesting is most people who had the negative dreams, around 95%, also had a positive dream. And there seems to be this...

push for people to dream of the seas in a positive way. And so, which is really fascinating to me. So if you are having a dream, what it tells me is you're not going to always have negative dreams. So the question is like, what does that reflect? Some people will interpret it as a haunting, right? Some people who think of these dreams as visitations will also take the negative dreams as visitations. And, you know, based on your culture, whatever, like people can have different rules, understandings on these. But based on Western science, we would expect you to have negative dreams. So.

This may be more to do with your grief, your trauma, a lot of your guilt or regret. That's something that we looked into. Like, why are some people having these positive dreams versus negative dreams? you know, as we sort of found like guilt or regret and trauma were some of the predictors of that. Once you work through some of those things, you're more likely to have these positive experiences with the deceased. And so it's very fascinating to sort of see that and to really understand that for whatever reason there is this push for us to have these positive experiences.

griefandlight (16:02.69)
And they don't stop after one is, let's say, done with the acute phases of grief. When you've integrated your grief and your loss and you're moving forward and it's not as heavy. What's fascinating is the dreams don't stop. They may become less common, but a lot of times when you have these significant issues in your life, they can come back again to provide comfort. So in the pandemic, we saw a lot of different people just hanging out with the deceased or getting advice from the deceased. Other people through a divorce will have these dreams or a breakup where the deceased has come to comfort them.

in times of anxiety or job loss. And then even at end of life, you'll see these dreams again happen and they'll help with the transition from life to death. They provide the comfort to say it's okay to let go, that they're gonna be there. So it's really fascinating how in the beginning it starts with your grief, but then after that, it really helps you through the rest of your life in very difficult moments. And so that's the fascinating part of me. I don't know any other dream image that would actually do that. And so there is something very unique and kind of mysterious about it, which I kind of love. There's just something beautiful about

what can happen during our sleep that can really transform us and change us as we walk in this world. That is truly, truly fascinating. We try to make so much meaning out of them. And, you know, they did this in my dream. What does that mean? Are they OK? Does that mean that they haven't made it to heaven? Or, you know, there's all these questions that pop up. So thank you for bringing so much context to what they could possibly mean, how they could possibly be interpreted. Let's a negative dream.

doesn't mean that something bad's happening to them. There's no data or evidence of that. It may just be, hey, there is a traumatic element to this and it's showing up in a dream and or whatever other evolution you see throughout the years. Like I'm almost five years and I'm still having those dreams. But my mom has it and you know, they were extremely close and she always says, gosh, how do you do it? And I say, I don't know. I honestly don't know what they just happened.

But if I could just give up all my dreams to give them to her, I totally would because I would love for my mom to dream more. for somebody who is desperately wanting to dream of their person or try to find a way to prompt these encounters, if you will, or even just have a nice fluffy dream about their person, like how can they do this? Is there a way to prompt a grief dream, a bereavement dream? Good question. We've looked into sort of why

griefandlight (18:21.154)
Some people have these dreams of the deceased and others don't. And what we found was we looked at a lot of different predictors from personality to dream recall to spirituality, it's a lot of different stuff. And what we found was the major predictor in different studies, multiple studies, so it got replicated, was dream recall in general. And so what it's saying is that the more you remember your dreams, the more likely you're gonna remember one of these types of dreams with the deceased. And so I always question people now when I meet them, if they

want more dreams or they haven't had a lot of dreams, is just how often do they remember their dreams typically, just in general. And what you'll find is they'll say maybe not that often or a little bit, maybe once a week. Well, if you only remember one dream a week and you're dreaming throughout the night by seven, eight hours, right? Like in REM and non -REM, like the chances of catching that type of dream seems to be slim. And so you can increase your dream recall if that is something you want to do. But I always caution people because if you're in grief, yeah, the dreams of the deceased may be

positive, more likely positive. But your other dreams without the disease are probably going to be really negative because you're still dealing with grief. You know, like, and so you may have to sort of also have the understanding of how to work with those negative dreams that would come from an increase in recall. And so what you can do is just really in our Western culture is to value dreams. It's something that we're not taught about. We're taught to dismiss them. We're not talked about them in school or anything. First time I heard about dreams was actually the first time was in the Bible with Joseph.

I grew up in a Christian home. The second time was in my university degree and on the sleep course, there was a little section on dreams. And so that's a huge gap, just really understanding it. And so what you can do is just value the dreams and you're telling your mind that this is something you want to know more about, you want to remember. so listening to this podcast, talking about your dreams when they happen, reading about dreams, all of that will increase your dreams that you recall. So if you do have a dream, write it down.

What you're saying is that this is important to me. I want to remember it because a lot of dreams happen in a different conscious state. And so by the time we wake up, if we think about something else in the world and we try to go back to it's gone because it's happened in a different state of consciousness. And so the goal is to write it down so then you won't forget about it. And then that actually increases your dream recall rate. And I had about, you know, probably one or two dreams a week and I'm like, I wonder if this would work. And so I started doing that. And within a couple months, I was at

griefandlight (20:44.45)
like three dreams a night. Because I was writing them all down, but like that's how fast your mind says, you want to know more? Okay. You want to remember more? Here you go. And so then I was like, I'm getting tired from all the waking up from all these dreams. And so I stopped writing them down and only write down the more memorable ones. But then my recall rate had decreased because of it too. So you can increase and decrease it based on whatever you want to do. And so if you're having a lot of nightmares, it may not be best to write those down or talk about them with everyone you meet.

because you're remembering more of them. There's other things you can also do when it comes to nightmares that we can talk about to help you reduce the distress from the nightmare. Maybe get some understanding. But just in general, it's understanding that you can change your frequency. And there's going to be about 10 % of the population that doesn't remember dreaming at all. So they're not going to be able to remember any of these dreams. And so there are still ways to sort of engage those individuals. And I always like to ask at the end of my podcast, but also on my website, griefdreams .ca, I have a griefdreams worksheet where

What you can do is basically create a dream you want to have. Like what would be the perfect dream for you to have if that was the case, if you could actually manifest something like that. And what's interesting about this is, is that it can provide you a lot of information about what you're longing for, but it also can provide other people around you an opportunity to all talk about the dreams they want to have. Cause some people are going to have dreams, some people aren't and that's okay. We're humans, we're built differently. We have different reasons and understandings that the mind is doing different things.

And so if you're not having a dream, it's okay to ask other people and utilize their dream. So if you're longing for a dream to know that they've, let's say, quote unquote, crossed over or that they're okay, or they're watching out for you. If someone else has that dream, we'll utilize it and say, they are okay. They're all good. Okay, cool. That's something I don't have to worry about anymore. Yeah, you may want one yourself, but it's okay not to have everything as long as you know that they're safe. Right. And then hopefully in time you can have that. But by talking about even those feelings, it's important because that's part of the grief journey.

You what you're saying is just, miss them. I wish I had another opportunity to see them. Yeah, I wish you had that too. but that's something that we can't actually manifest. We can't actually produce that in people's sleep yet. Maybe one day we can, but as of right now, all we can do is honor the process and honor people sharing. And at one time or another, you'll probably end up dreaming about them. especially if you can remember some of your dreams. I remember first thing came out of my podcast too. Never had a dream of her mom. Her mom died when she was a child.

griefandlight (23:11.808)
It was, I believe it was an earthquake and everyone around her was telling her that she was still alive even though she was dead. wow. So she went through her life knowing her mother died, but never really wanting it to be true. And so I asked her, you know, did you ever go to the grave site? And she's like, no. I said, why not? And she's like, because if I did, it would tell me that it actually happened. Like it was true. I said, well, maybe that's it. Like maybe even if you did dream of the sea, she wouldn't want to remember it because it's a

reflection that she has died and so maybe when you do go to the grave site You'll have a dream of your mom soon after and exactly what happened She decided to go visit the grave site and then a couple days later She had a dream of her mom putting like one of her old necklaces on her and it just a beautiful moment And so you sort of see part of it It could be our readiness and where we are in a grieving process. Some people say they don't want a dream It'd be too scary or they have these understandings on what that would make them feel waking up and

They may not be ready for that and that's okay, you know? But it's just like understanding and questioning some of that stuff can be helpful to sort of understand where the individual is, like what their dream recall rate, if they even want a dream, all that sort of stuff. And, but at same time, it's just great to be able to pose a question either way, what dream would you want to have tonight if you could? And it's amazing the responses that people come up with because it comes from their heart. comes from their memories, their mind. And like, that's beautiful. And I've seen many people do different things with that, from paintings and meditation, so all sorts of stuff.

Even if they have a nightmare, they'll remember that dream instead and that can help. Right? So there's just different things and tools we can utilize when it comes to this topic. Thank you for that. And there's so much to unpack. I think it's fascinating. The fact that the dream recall is malleable in some way for positive dreams and then to slow down the rate of maybe the negative ones. So for the listeners and anybody watching, take the initiative, just play with it. Plan what dream you would like to have. As soon as I wake up in the middle of the night from a dream,

I go to the note section, it's already open, so I'm still sleepy. I don't have to fumble on my phone and try to find all these things because what I notice is the more you try to wake up, the quicker the dream vanishes. What I try to do is stay in like that sleepy state as much as possible. And sometimes as I'm waking up, it's vanishing very quickly. So I stop what I'm doing. I close my eyes, try to tune into the feeling of what I dream. And all of a sudden everything comes flooding back. Like all the imagery comes flooding back. That's when I have the best recall. And then I start typing right away.

griefandlight (25:36.946)
And I built a practice out of this just because I didn't want to forget all the dreams. And I have this log of dreams. So for example, my mom, she would like to dream about him more. She doesn't know how to, but I tell her every dream and I say, Hey, I had this dream and this happened. She said, you gave me the answer to the question that I asked yesterday. It's interesting that you brought up, find a way to connect with it, even if it's through somebody else who maybe has the ability to dream more. So I find this making so much sense to me in my personal life as well. But if you're listening, I encourage you to.

Play with these ideas, be open -minded, see what happens. Let's just play with the why not, do it for the plot twist. Now, another topic you touched on was giving meaning. People have certain beliefs. It tends to be on the religious or spiritual side. They have a negative connotation about these dreams. It's almost like they fear them. They don't want to have them because that means X, Y, Z about their person. What advice could you give them to maybe be a little bit more open or interpret them differently?

I think the first thing is what research can do is just allow you to see it from a different perspective. And you're taught in a certain culture in a certain way and that's fine, right? But just understand that there's different ways of seeing the world. Research is just another way, another stream. And so the positive dreams, those are great for people to have, but understanding where the negative dreams may be coming from, I think is very important. I grew up in a Christian home and they didn't have any understanding of dreams. And so they would just go to the pastor to sort of see what is going on with these dreams. And so then

password say, it's the devil is causing you to have these nightmares. But now I know, I don't think it was a devil. was just being in an unsafe environment at home. I think that was probably it. And so I had a lot of like nightmares growing up. So when I started doing this work, I realized very similar statements when it comes to this topic where there's been people in my, some of the speaking gigs I have and just emails and even doing the research where

I've had pastors or different other people state that people have told them that these dreams are from the devil, even the very positive ones. So, they're like the devil's disguised himself as your deceased person to trick you in a way. And I think that's interesting because I try to figure that out like what would cause that? And I think it's because they have a belief of where the soul is and if the soul is there, it can't be here, right? So, it's just like there's got to be trickery going on and it be the devil. But what's fascinating is that

griefandlight (27:59.874)
These people who are making these assumptions about, I guess, the afterlife or even the dreams, haven't actually looked at dreams in general. I haven't done their own research in it. So they're going off what people have told them in general or their own experiences. And so when I do get this sort of question a lot, I think it's okay to say that we don't know them, but to sort of jump that these positive dreams are from the devil is actually kind of absurd. And I'll just, I'll say why, because I don't like attacking individuals.

It's just the belief itself is kind of absurd because the research has shown that these dreams can allow people to believe more in afterlife, if it is heaven, believe more in heaven, repair their faith, which all the things that a devil wouldn't want you to do, right? They want, a devil technically wants you to suffer. But what these dreams are doing is providing more love in your life to believe. And then a lot of these dreams, I've asked pastors, they said, what about if I dream of Jesus? He's dead. You know, like, is that the devil in the sky? It's like, no, that's not. I said, okay, what about...

Jesus with the deceased because I've seen a ton of dreams like that. And then the question is, well, I don't know. Well, I think that's a good point to start. If, if Jesus could come with the deceased, why can't the deceased come alone? Like just like these different things. And then I bring up scripture and I say like Matthew 12, this happened with Jesus when he was healing people. they said, your healing is from the devil. And he's like, well, that doesn't make any sense. Like why would, why would the devil be healing people and like attacking his own kind of thing?

where it's confusing people to believe more in heaven and more in God. Like it doesn't make any sense. And so it's same kind of logic here where it doesn't make sense of who the devil is for it to go this way. So then you're at a crossroads. Is it a visitation? Is that something that one would allow or is it the mind? And I'm in a place that, I don't know, it doesn't matter. It's more your decision to do, but to try to take something positive and make it negative really complicates people's grief because that's something that either the mind or the visitation

It's trying to provide comfort to the individual. And now you're saying you should be distressed by it. Like it's the devil haunting you. It's just being understandable what we're saying and how important it is to fact check some of the stuff just through the research now and through our own understanding. So it's very important to do that. So there's some Buddhists who can have these very beautiful dreams and in the beginning they're very powerful and comforting, but after a while they can be very distressing because it's a sign that the soul hasn't reincarnated yet.

griefandlight (30:26.23)
And so for them, there's one paper I read, was like after two years, some Buddhists believe that's the timeframe when souls should be reincarnated. And so if you're continuing to have these dreams, they have these rituals that they do to provide like these merits to try to get them to incarnate faster, which is interesting. And so, you know, that is its own story, but I've heard other Buddhists will say, no, they're enlightened or no, can incarnate when they can. And so it's just understanding the rules that people have told us.

and how that can impact our interpretation. And sometimes the rules need to change, you know, and I've seen that many times where these dreams actually help change people's perspectives on their own belief structure, their religion. had atheists now who want to believe. I had people who believe in hell. And then there are persons who should be there because there's a very mean person was providing forgiveness, was in the afterlife. And they like, well, maybe it isn't as I thought it was.

I think it's just being flexible with our minds a little bit. And with that, it's understanding that when we do talk about these dreams with people in groups or whatever, people are going to have their own understandings, their own culture is going to have understandings towards it. And we just have to talk to them and listen and understand like what are their strategies for dealing with these nightmares or if it's a haunting. know, research can help in some circumstances, but if it's a positive dream and then they're concerned about that, well, then let's talk about what that concern means and is.

And then from there, we can sort of see if your culture has any kind of rituals or different things to help moving forward. There was a paper, I think it was Brazil, where if you don't get your child baptized at a certain time, they can't go to heaven. What was interesting was these parents were just grieving that because their child wasn't baptized in time. And for them, in their faith, that's such a horrifying thing. But then they had these dreams where their deceased child was telling them they were in heaven. And so all of sudden, that kind of like eliminates that.

that belief from them and they're like amazing and they praise God and whatnot. But how those beliefs can change that and I think it's very important to understand the power of these and alleviating some of the suffering that is caused by different beliefs that you know, people have imputed on their, the culture or their party or whatever and to know that it may not be true. Like there's so many different theories of the afterlife, so many different rules and regulations and things that we should follow or understand. We don't know.

griefandlight (32:48.672)
Right? Like end the day. These are our best guesses based on a human mind. But I know a lot of these dreams have really helped provide guidance for a lot of people. And I would definitely think that if you actually study these dreams, you'll probably get a different kind of understanding of maybe what the afterlife is like based on, you know, cross -culturally looking at these dreams. Because one of the biggest things is a huge, very powerful love that's really within the imagery.

that a lot of people say they've never really felt before that stays with them. Kind of like what happened with my dad. There's this loving energy that I'm like, wow, like don't know if I've ever felt that. I'm always, there's always some type of anxiety when I'm awake, right? There's always something going on. I worry or I think about the future or think about the past, but like in there, it's like you're in the present and there's this love and there's like this being there and you get to talk to them. Even acknowledging the death is real, but you're still there, right? And there's still not that deep kind of grief and it's fascinating. You see that across cultures. There's a lot of wisdom within these dreams that

we can find, like, I don't know if it's visitation or not, but I can honor it if someone believes it is. Thank you. Thank you for that. I completely agree that there is an influence with, you know, religious beliefs, personal beliefs, cultural beliefs, et cetera. My encouragement would be to approach it from a place of curiosity. If a dream shows up instead of judging it right away, acknowledge that it happened and start there. Try not to give it too much meaning. I try to divide things into is this helpful for me in my grief journey versus not helpful.

The labels are less important than what we get out of these experiences. And like you said, with your dream with your dad, it sounded very healing, very beautiful. He looked healthy. There was that love energy. That's so beautiful. That helps you move forward. So if that's what you take away from it, then great. If you want to give a different meaning, that's a whole different experience. And I just invite anybody to relax into the experience and not approach it with so much fear. Instead, switch that fear into curiosity and just lean into that beautiful experience.

I want to pivot to the conversation about continuing bonds. It is one of my favorite topics. did an episode on this called death ends a life, but not a relationship. something you're well versed in. So talk to us about the evolution of continuing bonds, how it started, where we are now and how they relate to dreams. And I know that's a whole dissertation in and of itself, but like very high level. is. This is a lot to talk about. Yeah. So.

griefandlight (35:06.444)
In the beginning, I wouldn't say in the beginning, because indigenous cultures always sort of talked about continuing bonds in their own way. But Freud was the one to talk about the need to relinquish relationships with the deceased. He talked about not doing continuing bonds. Like if we do continuing bonds, he said it actually hinders us in the grieving process. Like don't think about the deceased, don't talk about them, let it go, move forward without them, it's done. But that's not how humans grieve. So what he was really saying is like,

push down your feelings. And now some of the issue is because of the research that was going on, there was like mixed results on how doing continuing bonds related to grief. There's a correlation there. It could be doing continuing bonds increases our grief. Or it could be when we're grieving, we're doing our continuing bonds to sort of help cope. And so there's new research, mine included, that really showcases that certain types of continuing bonds can be very beneficial to people in the grieving process.

And there's really two different types. Well, I guess there's a lot, but you can put them into two different types. And the first is these internalized continuing bonds. It's more within us, it's very comforting. have agency, we're choosing to do these. So it's about going to the grave site or looking at photos or talking about them. Like these are all very like internalized continuing bonds. Like we're doing it, right? And so research shows that those tend to be more comforting for people and to relate to post -traumatic growth, which is amazing.

And then you have these externalized continuing bonds. This could be these waking life experiences that we can have of the deceased. So you could hear them, we can see them, smell them, things like that, or we feel their touch. But it'd also be thinking that the deceased is haunting you as part of that. So these negative types of things that we can also feel. People would refer to as like a paranormal activity. It could be, or it could just be inside. Like sometimes we think that, you know, our deceased would be proud of us for who we are.

One would say, the ceases sort of ashamed as us. And so there's that negative view of what the ceases doing. That's more like the externalized continuing bonds. And they tend to be more negative in the sense of the stress they're causing people. But what's interesting is they're also tied to post -traumatic growth, but only when they're comforting. We looked at further was, okay, you have these two different types looking at attachment and trauma and grief. What are people directed towards? Like what's like, what's the predictors for that? And what we found in multiple studies was that

griefandlight (37:31.19)
When it comes to these internalized continuing bonds, bonds that we typically do at, know, like hospices or any kind of bereavement programs, this is good for people who are anxiously attached or even secure attached will tend to do those. People who are avoidant attached don't tend to do those, right? Because someone who has an avoidant attachment, not going to process their emotions. They don't want to go towards their grief. So they're going to avoid that. So they don't really do those internalizing types. What happens is they have these externalizing continuing bonds. So people who are avoiding their grief,

right, having the avoid attachment style, they're having more of these externalized experiences, which is very fascinating to me. And so it could be that because we're not choosing in our own way to go towards the grief and we're trying to avoid it, it could be manifesting in front of us, right, these externalizing things to help us to process our own grief. That's one theory when it comes to that. The other thing when you look at grief and trauma, grief in general tends to be predicted more to go to the internalized continuing bonds.

People processing traumatic symptoms tends to be focused at the externalized. So when we look at these externalized continuing bonds, it's still a red flag. Even though some people can take them as comforting, which is great, provide comfort. But a lot of times when people are experiencing those, it could represent trauma. It could represent avoidant attachment style. And those are sort of some things that we keep in mind. Because when we look at grief, continuing bonds may be great for certain people, like these internalizing continuing bonds be great for certain people, but not everyone.

And it's really understanding that people are going have different attachment styles. And if we try to force someone with avoidant attachment style into doing something, maybe internalized, like looking at photos or doing this or joining this grief group, it may not be the best approach for them. Rhesus has shown when you look at what works best for maybe avoidant attachment styles is more like getting them to understand their somatic symptoms, their headaches, their day and how to breathe and doing more of that body work with them.

rather than doing this kind of group talk therapy. So starting there. It's very interesting to see how these continuing bonds really are there and who utilizes them within their grieving process. Well, thank you for that distinction because the way that I've always understood continuing bonds has been like in that positive, more internal processing way. And I always encourage people to develop that on their own, whatever that looks like to them. But I'm hearing that that depends. What is their attachment style? Is it causing more trauma? So that's very eye -opening as well. And if

griefandlight (39:54.178)
you're listening and you can relate to any of this, maybe you could identify then this is a better way for me to move forward versus this other way. So very fascinating to hold that distinction, like the dreams and the meaning is unique to each person and their experience, their trauma and their joys and all the things. I do want to touch on our love for Ram Dass and his teachings. And I believe if I heard in one of your episodes you've dreamt about him, talk about who Ram Dass was, his work and anything you want to share about your dream.

Beautiful question. Wow. Ram Dass is a legend. And I would say a guide and a great teacher for me on the path. So one of the biggest things for me was I've had certain dreams and certain experiences in life. And what a lot of them have taught me is, that I didn't love myself. And how do you love yourself in this world where you don't really have these role models who also love themselves? And how do you deal with your grief, your trauma? How do you walk in a world with confidence? And growing up,

and loving psychology. my BA was in psychology, MA, PhD. He was a psychology professor at Harvard who was doing studies within psychedelics like LSD. And he was getting to a state of love utilizing these chemicals. He went on this path and he found a guru who basically explained to him that the drug he was using was just a back door into what is possible being human, which is you can have great love within yourself.

And so his journey was him also trying to love himself in his own way and having a Guru to showcase how to get there. It's just been a beautiful story of my growth and learning from him from his growth. And hopefully as I move forward, I can also be a model for other people moving forward on the importance of focusing on ourselves and understanding that there's so much work that needs to be done within ourselves, but also to be compassionate, you know, within our journey.

I know I was very hard on myself in many ways, like I should be further than I am or why is this taking so long? But then you realize, well, I've done 30 years of getting, going down the wrong way. It's going to take some time to come back and build a new approach and model myself. I got to say, like that was one of the big things for me that I learned from him. I had never had him on my podcast, but I had two other people, his friends on the podcast who all said the same kind of guru, named Crowley Baba.

griefandlight (42:13.454)
And one of my favorite quotes from him is love is the strongest medicine. And one of the things I've seen through these dreams, cross -culture really, on how powerful love could be within these dreams. And it's almost like a lighthouse for people to know what's possible. Cause I always say if it happens in their dream and you feel it, well, that feeling's possible in waking life too. But a lot of times we've never had that experience. And the question is why? And it's because of all that other stuff that's going on within our lives that take over that purity of what's

already within. With that, I wanted to share a dream too, not of Ram Dass, but of someone else to give you an idea of just the power of love. I had this individual share a dream with me where she was visiting, I believe it was a cousin who died, and she was in this space. The space is so amazing. I feel so much love here. And the deceased says, yeah, because the space is love. And then she says, but how can I feel this love if I don't love myself?

And then he says, in this space, you do love yourself. And then she woke up and it's just like, wait, what? What? And it's just, it's just, there's a beauty in that. And it's a beauty in just understanding how much love can heal us and how even looking back on my dream with my father, yes, I got to say goodbye, which I never had a chance to do. Yes, I got to tell him I love them, which I haven't done in like probably 20 years or something because just wasn't that type of relationship.

but I believe there was that love in the dream was the profounding change factor within it all. He was in the state of love. I was in a sort of environment of love and it helped move something within me. And so the dream of Ram Dass, that I had, there's, there's a couple I've had, you know, throughout the years. wonder which one that you heard I shared, but one of them was just being at a,

one of his lectures and he just finished the lecture and he was like handing out some stuff and everyone was like trying to get signatures from him and everything and I walked up and I saw the like the crowd and I just walked past and I went to a corner and then I saw in the corner there was this book and top of the book was a picture of you know, named Krolli Baba, his guru and I just sat there, began to meditate and he walked over and we had personal time together. It was just fascinating because I did the way and I just followed my heart, I got a whole moment with him.

griefandlight (44:33.646)
which is much different. Really allowing myself to try new things and to be curious about life, be curious about myself and curious about what love is because the reality is I'm still learning every day and every year I look back and like, wow, like I've gained so much that I didn't know was possible before. I think that's what life is. Our concept of love is flawed based on what we've seen, what we heard in our own experiences. And I think there's a different type of love that as we move forward, it can manifest in front of us. And I think that's a very positive thing that that's

something that we can do. Like this is not something someone can give us. Like this is a journey that we have to go on. And same thing with dreams. People can't really interpret your dreams. Like you have your own dream language. And so when we look at people's dreams, I always say like, don't go online, don't go on a dream dictionary. Like it's not going to be helpful. You're going to be capturing other people's ideas of what those symbols mean. You yourself as a unique person and you have your most unique features about how you see an image, how you feel, who the person is that died.

and how it all relates. It's not just about the image, it's about the story and the feelings that go along with the dream. And I think as you process it, as you talk more about it, you can find those connections. You can try to understand a new language that our culture really hasn't been helpful to understand. And so it's going to take time, but I always tell people if you start at the emotion and reflect it back to waking life, that can really help, especially with those nightmares and any kind of anxiety dreams, to really sort of see, okay, where is this maybe talking about?

that I may be avoiding or haven't really been processing. And that's a good way to start as you learn about your language and your own symbols. In this space, you know how to love. Is that the quote? That powerful, if we could just take that there is a part of us that is in that space, whatever that space is that knows how to do this. Apply that to your life however it benefits you. I think that's a beautiful message. And ultimately these dreams and being able to connect to this energy, even in the trauma, I think there's some

message that could ultimately be for our greater good. It's a matter of leaning into the curiosity. Use your inner wisdom to interpret what that means. Sometimes it's as simple as, hey, you might need a little extra support in this area. And other times it's absolutely magical. And sometimes we don't even have the words to explain what that beautiful message was. So just stay in that energy. think, you know, from personal experience, there are messages that I really don't have words for, and I don't think I'm supposed to. I think it's just...

griefandlight (46:58.606)
and energy I'm supposed to live in for a specific moment in time. So thank you so much. We're at the end here. I wanted to give you the opportunity to touch on anything that maybe I didn't ask and where they can reach you. think there's enough there. You can also learn some more on the website, griefdreams .ca. There's other questions that I answer on there. And also listening to the griefdreams podcast, we have over 230 people that have come on, shared their experience. And so like just hearing those stories.

can give you an idea of like how vast these dreams are and even how they interpret their own dreams, which is really nice to sort of hear and be a part of almost like a community that you can actually hear about this stuff in a way. I know some people don't talk about this stuff and don't want to share it because maybe it could be a very beautiful experience or they just want other people to judge it and put their own interpretations on it. And so this is a nice little way for people to sort of see the vastness and also validate some of their own. And so you can also find me on Instagram at

grief dreams and there's also a Facebook page. Just go on the website and you can find everything there. And what about your research? Are you actively researching right now? Is there something that you want to work on in the near future? Yes, of course. I haven't stopped. So one of the things that we're working on right now is a project at the BC Center for Public Care for bereavement in context of homelessness. And one of the questions we asked within that huge undertaking, the research, was their dreams that they had. And so we're going to be

I'll be writing a paper up on the dreams that they've shared, you know, with that. And then we also do want to look at healthcare providers and their grief and their dreams. You say two of when a client passes. I think it's important as well as this are franchise griefs that doesn't get talked about enough of the grief that they sort of hold, you know, when a client passes or patient and the dream that they can have afterwards. There's a couple, there's two people that came on my podcast that shared about dreams that they had of past clients were very beautiful. And so if somebody I, I.

really want to sort of capture for the world to really see and you need research for people to validate it to be true in many ways. But I think where we are in our healthcare system, I think it's important for us to do more research when it comes to the grief that is being experienced by the workers there. Powerful stuff.

griefandlight (49:14.486)
I'm looking forward to that and I'm very curious to see what the differences are and how it affects each individual. Wow, very powerful. I look forward to following that and listening to your episodes. you are watching or listening, follow the Grief Dreams podcast. There's a wealth of information there, so many stories and fascinating data. So Dr. Black, thank you so much for your time. This has been incredibly interesting and selfishly. I just love this information. I love all this research. love it.

these types of conversations and I thank you for everything you're doing. As a final thought, what would Dr. Black say to young Josh embarking on this research journey? Keep moving forward, really, that's what it is. And like continue to love yourself. I think the goal, or just how myself is, understand the truth. And the truth is you don't love yourself. And if you can focus on that, everything else just comes into focus and your path kind of like falls in place really quickly. Until then, you're running around.

thinking everything else will sort of suffice that need. And once I realized that, it's so interesting on how the path kind of opened up and even how this topic, which one would assume would be so very distressing and because it's grief is probably the one of the most profound and loving things that one could actually do their studies on because there's so much love in a lot of these images that you wouldn't think. And so it was just interesting. was like, whatever you direct your mind to, it kind of manifests in like what you're going to do and who you're going to meet. And so.

That's what I would tell my younger self. Just, you know, focus on the truth that you just don't love yourself and learn to love yourself. Beautifully said. Thank you so much, Dr. Black. It's been an honor. Thank you for having me. That's it for today's episode. Be sure to subscribe to the Grief and Light podcast. I'd also love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and your stories. Feel free to share them with me via my Instagram page at griefandlight.

or can also visit griefandlight .com for more information and updates. Thank you so much for being here, for being you, and always remember, you are not alone.


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Nina Rodriguez

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