GRIEF AND LIGHT

Breaking the Silence on Preventable Stillbirth with Domenique Rice, TJ's Mom

• Nina Rodriguez • Season 1 • Episode 8

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The Ripple Effect: Conversations For Change Series

EP.8 Breaking the Silence on Preventable Stillbirth with Domenique Rice, TJ's Mom

In this moving episode, we have the honor of sitting down with Domenique Rice, a remarkable woman, friend, and Director of Operations for Push for Empowered Pregnancy, who unapologetically shares her story of enduring the devastating birth and stillbirth of her beloved son, TJ, and life thereafter as a mother to her children Heaven- and earth-side.

During this powerful interview, Domenique sheds light on the challenges that birthing parents often face within the U.S. healthcare system. She shares her own experiences and the ways in which she has sought to bring attention to the need for better support, empathy, and resources for parents who have experienced stillbirth.

We delve into Domenique's advocacy work with Push for Empowered Pregnancy, and the initiatives she has undertaken to raise awareness and promote empowered care for birthing parents and their support partners.

From collaborating with healthcare professionals to working with support groups and nonprofit organizations, she has become a driving force for change and a beacon of light for others facing similar journeys.

Links to Resources mentioned in this episode:

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Disclaimer: This episode contains sensitive content related to stillbirth and infant loss. Listener discretion is advised.
The information discussed in this episode does not constitute medical or legal advice. Always consult your qualified medical care team or attorney for advice.

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 Today is a very special day because I have an extremely important guest to me, the person that taught me most of what I know about grief and life and the work that follows such a life changing situation. Her name is Dominique Rice. She is momma to five beautiful children for earth side, one heaven side. And she has been a dear friend for many years. We don't want to date ourselves, but we have been friends since early 2000 when we were back in college in University of Oregon. And you have you were a strong, independent woman back then with your viewpoints and your head on straight, if you will. And if anything, these really bizarre life experiences have amplified that and techniques that in in different levels that we were not expecting by Dominique. She unfortunately suffered the stillbirth of her first born son, second child, t.j. And we're here to talk about that reality, life before, during, and what it has become now. And so with that. Welcome, Dominique. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I just I love that we're having this conversation and that we're we're just here in such a powerful space. Before we get to all the the current situation, it wasn't always about birth and it wasn't always this this very deep reality that we know now. So, you know, I remember when we were just happy go lucky kids and we just lived life. And you got married to a wonderful husband. You had your first beautiful baby girl, then you got pregnant with t.j. Tell us a little bit about what life was like back then. Yeah, you know, I for those who I have not had the privilege of meeting yet, I live in Brooklyn and been in Brooklyn for now 15 years in August. And I'm one of like Nina's lone soldiers out here in the East. But we've always kept connected over the years. And six years ago on May 29th, my son, T.J., my beautiful son, T.J., was born and he was still stillborn at 36 and a half weeks pregnant. But our love story began way before that. I found out I was pregnant with him, though Halloween before, and Halloween has always been one of my favorites. Nina knows that, you know, we always made a big deal out of it. So as you can imagine, I was just so thrilled to find out I was pregnant with him on Halloween. We had a beautiful pregnancy. It was what we would deem as uneventful. So simply meaning that there was no significant complications. Actually ran with him up until about 30 weeks pregnant. And then in regards to like as we started inching towards like 33 weeks pregnant, I started feeling his movements change. And the doctor at the time, whenever I expressed them, really never expressed the importance of counting or monitoring your kicks. And, you know, she said, no, you're fine, you're fine. And even encouraged me to take one more traveled before before I would no longer travel with him. And I didn't think anything was wrong. I didn't think in at that time 2017 that aging horrible could exist. And I was healthy. You know, you and you mentioned I was running and doing all these things. I was constantly talking to him. And Memorial Day rolled up in 2017, May 29th. In the early bits of the morning, I felt some contractions and felt really I felt a little off and which was not normal for me as TJ's sister, actually, when I went into labor with her a little after 40 weeks pregnant. So as you can imagine, there was extreme concern on my ends. And, you know, my husband said, no, you know, we're we're fine, no big deal. Like, let's just why don't you just rest? And I as the day progressed, I started not feeling very well. And so we essentially called the doctor and they told us to come in. We do not have any family out here in the east because as you know. So we had to wait for our daughter's babysitter to come. And at still in my mind in our mind, we didn't think anything was wrong. I actually thought the worst thing that was happening was that I didn't have a sweatshirt for him because he was supposed to be born June 22nd. That was his due date. So I didn't think anything wrong or just like, okay, it's just come and so and so packed my bags and we went to the hospital and it was there upon getting checked. Into the hospital where for those that go through through pregnancy, you know, you get admitted. You get changed. And then they automatically check the baby's heartbeat as well as yours. And still, you know, I'm in pain knowing I'm in labor. At that time, it wasn't until I was on on the monitor that I noticed that the the nurse the intake nurse was acting a little off. Didn't think anything of it. She said, I'll be back. And I just, you know, held Terri my husband's hand. Kind of fast forward through things. Another doctor came in and they said some of the most horrific words that are grieving individuals can ever hear. I'm sorry, there's no heartbeat. Oh, my goodness. And as you can imagine, that's the defining moment of my life, completely being thrown upside down and. That's when I realized in the following minutes after that I still had to give birth to my beautiful side. And at 36 and a half weeks, I didn't think I didn't think anything. I didn't understand what was was really happening. And I think it's so important to talk about these heavy, heavy, heavy topics because without talking about them, can we understand the power of grief, the power of love, the power of of everything that is intertwined into the relationships of people that we love? And fast forward through that, I gave birth to my beautiful TJ, who looked exactly like his dad and his older sibling later on that evening, right before midnight on May 29th, 2017. He was what we were the first stillborn. And stillborn is when your child is no longer having a heartbeat after 28 weeks gestation. I would learn later on that his death was preventable. I kind of put numbers and awareness around the word stillbirth. Stillbirth occurs to over 21,000 birthing people in the US. I had no idea in 2017 that that was even a thing that even still happens. I had no idea that of the 21,000 birthing people that 2 to 3 times more that black and brown birthing people are more likely to become or experience stillbirth than white families. I just didn't know. I didn't know. And I feel like, first of all, I'm so sorry. I feel the heaviness of that, I imagine, and I feel it with you, obviously not the way that you experienced it, but it's like everything's okay until it wasn't, you know, everything was, like you said, uneventful. You felt great. You were expecting you were worrying about his little sweater that you had to get for a birthday. And all of a sudden, you know, you feel a little funny, go get checked up, do your thing and everything. Everything changed. And then to learn that it was preventable, I think is just adds another layer of complexity and pain to the whole thing. And I don't I don't have children, so I don't know the full experience. But a lot of what I've learned has been through you. Birthing people do not know the information that they need to know to ensure that if there are signs of something not quite right, they're not really equipped to know what to do. There's a huge information gap and like you said, it affects black and brown people way more than everybody else. I think through your work and through your education efforts and through your partnership with with many organizations that we'll talk about later, I have learned about these discrepancies about the need for information, education and certain medical checkups, I would think and you can talk about that a little bit more about what exactly can can help prevent these situations. I've heard you say the phrase count the kick. So maybe talk a little bit about what are some of those things that could have made the difference and could have meant. Yeah. Jay still being with us. Yeah. So to just kind of put because I'm always the numbers guy because I think it's so important to talk about it because yes, I'm one of the many faces that of stillbirth, but it's important to talk about these numbers so people don't forget that. But every single family, there's love behind that. We're not just those numbers, but we're the families. Right. And it's more than just the death rate. So going back into stillbirth affects over 21,000 families. Birthing people a year of that shy of 50% are preventable, which is absolutely horrific because there is a significant lack of awareness in prevention that could be communicated out to birthing people globally, because it's it's a significant issue globally. We find out when you're pregnant, you have your doctor tell you about like, oh, make sure that you don't have cats around because you could get sick based on like all these other things. Like don't eat deli meats, don't eat certain types of cheeses. No, thanks. You never talk about stillbirth. And it's like stillbirth rates are the highest type of death for infants and like which is horrific because you don't talk about it. So going back to prevention, prevention is absolutely key to supporting this. And it's driven me and a handful of other birthing people to start a charity called Push for a Powered Pregnancy that is really making noise globally, building not only different organizations accountable, but other charities, other types of birth workers accountable to the prevention aspect of things It's not to scare people. It's to empower them with the education so that they can communicate to those birthing people so that they don't have to experience this horrific heartbreak like we do. Right. So it's something as simple as count the kicks, understanding what movements your child's develops. So what is their their normal? So up around like 24 or 20, 26 ish weeks pregnant, your, your, your baby starts kicking and moving around at certain times throughout the day and you start becoming more aware as they start growing. And there are some fantastic apps that are or support tools. So Count the Kicks is one of those. It's a free app that you can use just to use select a certain day, time of day, and you do it every single day and just so that you can double check. Okay, baby's kicking 20 times today are 15 times at, you know, five. Oh one. And that's going to be every time that you check it, because then you can find, you know, the irregularity is. So if it's too fast, that might be an indication that there's something wrong. If it's too low, that also might be an indicator of something is too low. I'll link in the organization and the app in the show notes, and I want to highlight something that you just said so about counting the kicks in your your baby's normal movements, especially after the 26, 28 week mark. There is a misconception and it's like just something that women have, I think, said and repeated. And from the information that I know that you've posted, it's not even true. So there's this misconception that as the baby grows, they slow down, their movement slows down. So a lot of women have experienced something like that. And luckily they listen to their intuition and they pushed for medical intervention. But it had they not, it would have been a different conversation, though. Tell us a little bit about why that's a false misconception. And for those that are listening to this, you can't see my face and I'm like, oh, like shaking my your breasts, because I am like, yes, yes, yes. You're right. This one gets me so fired up because I was given that misinformation in New York of all places. Right. So you would and I say New York of all places, because you would assume that you would get the best care. Right. So there is a lot of mis out information out there. There's so many old wives tales out there. This one is probably at the top of the list. So your baby does not run out of room as as they get closer to the 40 weeks. It's not true. It does not happen. They begin sleeping and exercising a little bit more. Was there and then you feel their movements a lot more because they're just growing. But that does not mean that they run out of any space. Another wives tale that's out there is like, if you don't feel them, move, give them sugar, give them a free floating cold drink. Orange juice. No, that is not going to give you the the the baseline that something is wrong. And so one of the things that I tell in my advocacy work, as well as all my individuals that are in this space, really at what I refer to as like, you know, we are the feet on the street, the parents that are saying giving as much information as we possibly can to empower it's when in doubt, always go in, always go. And I know that you and I had some conversations about that as well. Like always communicate to people, always go in and push your practitioners, unfortunately specifically for, you know, black, Latino, AAPI individuals. You know, there's also the systemic racism that we faced. And there is a maternal health crisis in the country specifically, once again, with leading front and center with our black family. So it is so important to always advocate for yourself, but have another support person with you to help you advocate one that you may not be able to make certain decisions for yourself. I want to highlight that. So advocacy, you know, it's one speaking up for yourself. And if you feel something, if your intuition is screaming at you or even whispering at you, just go in and listen to that. I think that's really important. Second, it's your birthing partner. Make sure that you are both aligned to make sure that that person can speak on your behalf and push for you and your care in the event that you're either unable to do so or that you need somebody else backing you up. It could also be I don't know if you're working with Birth Dula or like how else couldn't be. Is this with you? Could this be like a birthing plan with your doctor or like what does this look like in practice? So I would say you always have to have a support person or, you know, try and find a support person. I can't express that enough because in some parts of the country, you may not have a doula, a great doula. That's that's close by. You may not even have like your doula sometimes may not even be trained on how to on on stillbirth prevention. They they even may have some of the misinformation. And I just highlight that briefly simply because there's a lot of misinformation out there where it's not being it's not being updated in regards to from an educational standpoint. So one of the campaigns that with my group Push for empowered pregnancy really works towards is holding them accountable. We're trying to hold them accountable with improving the certain practices that they are encouraging their practitioners to. They're essentially I should take a step back. They essentially are like the hub where all the majority of practitioners get all of their guidance from. Saul Eventually the standard for here and whatever information is disseminated through them, it's Bible like it's exactly like 100% and it's a love hate relationship. I've learned that a lot of practitioners have because they actually have to pay into in order to be a part of this like community. But for our work, it's so important to hold them accountable to to do certain updates on the care for the birthing person. So this can be something as simple as like within the second trimester, there's like two scans per se that you're, you're encouraged by that to do. There's also, as you can imagine, insurance tied into it. So the goal of actually is and like the background of things, however, you know,  does not regulate that the care that's given by the practitioner. So it really puts our birthing people at risk to advocate for themselves, to know that, you know, just having your practitioner listen to the heartbeat is not enough. Well, not enough. That's why it's so essential to know, you know, having a better idea of, like, kick patterns so that, you know, if in the event that your doctor is checking the heartbeat and it looks fine or normal range, they will say that you can say something feels off of my patterns. I don't, you know, the kicking the movement, you know, can I get another opinion? Because I don't feel confident in what's happening in my body. And obviously we can't see what's going on. And yes, you you just checked the heart rate, but something feels off, like if you weren't educated about doing that. Then you're putting yourself and your child at risk. And the count, the kick that, for example, could be a good tool for this, because let's say you've been using it consistently and you have a pattern that's recorded. It may be sure your health care provider and say like, no, this is off. And I have the the visual data to prove it. Like, you know, would a tool that could be used to to back that information up. Exactly. And what I've heard you say, the whole measure, the placenta. What? Tell us a little bit more about that measure. The placenta is one of push for empowered pregnancy use partner organizations as well. And they have really advocated for different practices to measure the baby is placenta. And the reason why I wanted to be mindful of my words is because the placenta is in the the birthing person's right, the placenta is the baby's. So that's an extension of the baby. And so envision like a donut per say that donut is the baby is it's and then it's connected to the umbilical cord and then that is connected to the mom, the inside of the mom or the birthing person. Excuse me. There are certain tests that you can do to determine the healthiness or the the certain status of the placenta. The placenta is the lifeline for the baby. That's so important to say. That's the lifeline for the baby. I would learn after like many years after T.J. died and I sent his placental scan to a specialist here in the Tri-State area that he had a placental size that was at in the third percentile based on his gestation. Had his placenta been measured during a certain scan that isn't mandated or enforced by , he could have that could have been detected and we could have monitored been monitored a lot closely and most likely induced a lot sooner. That is one of the various ways that you could possibly measure the placenta and indicate that there is some type of distress for the child that could potentially happen and could have prevented all of this. Essentially. Yeah, a simple scan and I had animals. How can birthing people in partners request? Like what should they say when you ask for this? So we have on our Push for Empowered Pregnancy website and I'd love to make sure that I if we could add this in the show notes and be appreciated 100 and actual how to do it. How to ask for it, how to advocate for it. In addition to we have a uniform individuals that could possibly help you find the closest or hospital that will be doing these because it's not conducted everywhere yet. Wow. And that's because  is not enforcing it. So that's another one of the initiatives that we are continuing to push. You know, we need to have more more data around the placenta. And  has not been at the forefront of being able to explore that or to enforce the different techniques or practices that can be done for that. And so one thing I want to highlight is that, first of all, thank goodness for organizations like PUSH for Empowered Pregnancy, like amazing, amazing, amazing work. It's unfortunate that it was created out of this very painful place and this deep desire to never have this happen to any mother or any birthing person again. It's very unfortunate that it takes this to bring awareness where, as you would think, that the organizations in charge with be power to disseminate information and way to prevent the birth is something that they don't necessarily embrace. Right. I have seen a lot of information and post then mothers who have experienced this, parents who have experienced this, that they're trying to bring this awareness to . They're trying to they have written, they have advocated, they have contacted. They have done their work. It's not like doesn't know this or other organizations like that don't know that they know this. So there's some resistance there. There's some discrepancy, there's some dissonance, there's something not aligning. And you would think just this very basic piece of information. I'm sure it's a multilayered subject. But what what's going on in from your perspective, like what's what efforts are being done and what do you think is going on? So it's a very challenging situation with the , and I think has some significant areas that they need to address immediately. And it's not just within stillbirth. It's funding political backers that are not aligned with their mission. I openly call them performative. I think they have some significant issues. And you're what we're seeing is more and more practitioners calling them out on their performances and asking questions. So if you are listening and you are a practitioner, I encourage you, I applaud you to continue holding them accountable. We live in a in a time more than ever where holding organizations and people accountable when they're not aligned with what they're saying, their core mission is is so important, so powerful. And so, you know, that's kind of like the whole challenge. And, you know, my group will continue to continue holding them accountable as much as we possibly can. We refuse to be quiet about this because we don't want anyone to ever experience this type of hurt. Heartbreaking reality, you know, with. And another aspect of that is we have fortunately been having a handful of great conversations with other organizations that are willing to address the epidemic that is stillbirth. And we within the past year had some tremendous conversations where we with and I h we had a panel of like 30 different families speak to them and say, this is my experience. We cannot wait any longer. Was failing to have more research that is going to be rooted in equitable research, right? So for over indexing what black families and we have to do that now. We have to find the funding like the government has to find funding and immediately because this is just absolutely unacceptable. And so we're so thrilled that they after a handful of different conversations for months that started actually the back half of last year that they said, you know what, we're going to find the funding. So that was a big win. And so we're trying to it's like a balance of trying to find the orgs that we can push to actually create change and then also continuing to hold like a accountable. But you know, one of the things I would love to just like share before we pivot because I think it's so important, please, here I am talking about advocacy and all of these things. And of course, I love talking about my TJ, but, you know, I think it's really important just as like a griever as as a role to recognize that like if you have this heartbreaking reality of experiencing a loved one die, you do not have to be an advocate in anything if you don't want to be. That doesn't mean that you don't love them or you're you're not doing this whole grief thing correctly or that you're not healing. All of that is like such BS mentality of what it means to be a griever. Or you have to find like the silver lining. We all know that. That's such b.s. I just want to make that clear here in our beautiful space that we're talking about, just because I'm not crying and I'm like excited about this in regards to talking about our advocacy does not mean you're doing it wrong or anyone else is doing it wrong if you're not. AD You know where I'm at today or thank you for mentioning that. But something in grief in general because the whole getting grief right or wrong and like air quotes here, right versus wrong, that's not anything. That doesn't mean anything like that doesn't even exist. Oh, you've got to let me read how you me too. And just because you went through a traumatic situation doesn't mean that all of a sudden you have to turn it into purpose and be coming out of it and do all these things. And do all these know if you're just sitting at home trying to survive another day that's also equally as brave and impulse. And you are not alone. You're not unless you have those still some moments. It's about how be it is and it's heavy for a very long time. I mean, like you said, this happened six years ago now. You know, I lost my brother three years and it's about to be ten months. So almost four years now. And it's still there are days and there are days. There's days and there's days. And how you grieve is is deeply personal. And how everybody does it is very, very personal. And actually, that's a perfect way to touch on a subject that I remember briefly, kind of, you know, texting about this way back when, but grief affects people differently. So you have TJ's older sister who experience who who has perhaps a little bit more awareness and younger siblings, obviously, because she well, she hugged him in your belly and you know like she has that that physical more experience and the the the rest of his crew you also have your your relation your marriage your relationship with TJ's dad and you know I know that gets complicated or was complicated at one point because. Hello grief loss all this is just what's not complicated about this. But you have found what I consider beautiful ways of harmonizing in the chaos. Like harmonizing and the pain and the grief and the chaos. How it's a little bit whatever you want to share about how that was with TJ's dad, TJ's older sister, and TJ's crew. So it's evolved. I can't remember the exact step, but the state is like significantly higher. That's something else I'll find too, that when a couple has experienced a pregnancy loss or pregnancy death, there is a significant percentage that actually do not make it through. Do not their marriage fails and if not within that immediate, you know, the media timeframe like long term and a lot of that is because there is such a different type of experience and connection with that child that died. It was just very different. And what I have found over the years is if there is not a certain respect for the grief that is held completely different, then that's when things are just going to implode. And I think that that's so important to share. Any time I had the opportunity to talk because I think people can look in from the outside and see, Oh, here's this Afro-Latino family, they have four kids. Oh, and a child had died. And, you know, like you see our pictures in some places. And this is life work for us. For me and my husband, it's life work. There's still some days where I have to, you know, what I refer to as the nice grief check and be like, Hey, you're not going to correct me in my grief today. I'm not just going to do something because or I'm not going to talk about it or I am going to talk about it as much as I want, like unapologetically. And that even happens like six years later. But, you know, I'd be lying if I said, like in the early days. I think what you're referring to in terms of our text message exchange back in the day was like, I don't know if we're going to make it. There are some losers that I can't. I will. I refuse to not honor my grief and love and my relationship with my son. And with that, I refused to keep. That love and our son and the relationship that I had or his older sister. And then what would evolve to his siblings? I refuse to keep that secret or quiet to the chest. And I've learned over time that my husband, just the way that he is, the pain has been so profound. The absence of our TEJA is so profound that he keeps it close to the chest. And I respect that. I respect that now. And I think that that's so important. You know, it's an evolution. And as his siblings have gotten older, even though they're still young, so his younger sibling was the one is going to turn five. Tyson The other one is going to turn four in October. Trevor And then we have Bree who is going to turn two in October as well. And so they see his picture. We talk about his signs when we're out and about in our Brooklyn neighborhood and we point them out and we talk about T.J and we singer TJ songs at nighttime and stuff. So we've, we've been creative with how we include him in our life, but initially came from me just having the immediate instinct on how I was going to parent. Like, you have the decision when when your loved one dies, how am I going to hold them, you know, in my daily life And that changes every single day, you know, and that's okay. But like for me, just my instinct was to love him as much as I could, even though he, you know, he was dead and I loved him, you know, to beautiful little knows when I saw him, that was my son. That is my son. And that doesn't ever change. Just like for, you know, like your brother's always going to be your brother. It's never going to change. It's never going to change. I talk about that in the second. I believe it's the second podcast episode when I learned about the Continuing Bonds theory through Brian Smith of Grief to Growth, it just clicked and made perfect sense because it gave a name to something we were doing naturally, which was maintaining a relationship with our loved one. Even though they're not physically here, what there is there. It's a full blown relationship. It just looks so very different. Not anything we expected and it's redefined as time goes by. Like any other relationship, I know that I learned a lot about this through you as well. Like I know you have your TJ signed. I know that big sister incorporates him in her life as well. She draws pictures of him and the younger siblings. They do activities together in his name. So they know, T.J., they know they're their brother. And I find it so beautiful. I find it so inspirational. I find it so it's like painfully beautiful because it's so bittersweet. But I appreciate that. It's this amazing relationship. And at the end of the day, it's all about love. It's all about how you parent your children, how you love your children, all of them, no matter where they are. It talks about the unconditional nature of love. I know that with the loss of my brother, I've seen my mom become a mom to her son in heaven as well. You know, she has a relationship with him, too. And same thing with my dad. And similar to your situation with let's see, do that, especially in early grief, I feel like you guys reached like a beautiful point that is ever evolving, especially in the early grief. Like there's different manifestations. Some people speak up more and some people get more quiet, and sometimes that quiet can be perceived as not caring. And it could be very painful if it's not clearly explained or if there's a lot of doubt about what exactly is that you're expressing or not expressing. It could look so different for everybody, but it is not easy and it's not normal. And some days it's messy and some moments, you know, like it's messy. It's ever evolving. It really is. This is what I refer to. This work of life work. It is your life now. This is your wife. Yeah. And there's little ways that you incorporate him within you, like you have your T.J. earrings, your locket, sister bracelets and necklaces and all of these other things. It's like a physical representation of him being physically close to you whenever, you know, since we live in this very bizarre reality. And I think I think that's absolutely beautiful. So what is something you would tell moms who haven't gone through this experience, one and then two moms who have gone through this experience, like what would you want to share with them? So the most important feedback that I can give anyone that is newly pregnant and is just to be aware. Just to be. I would love to empower them on how they can monitor and really develop that relationship with their child. And different prevention tips that we have for our stillbirth prevention. I never thought it would happen to me. I never thought it did happen to 21,000 plus birthing people. And the 2000s were like, it's crazy. It's crazy to think so. Long story short, for for the new birthing person, I say, please don't turn a blind eye to organizations like Push for Empowered Pregnancy, where we are trying to support in awareness and advocacy. You could happen anyway. Could happen to anyone. And for the newly stillbirth. Breathing person. My heart goes out to you. My heart goes out to you. And there's no perfect way to this new type of parenthood. You deserve to hear your child's name and and to have the relationship with them that is curated by you. And most importantly. Do not let anyone tell you how to parent them. Is there anything you would like to share that maybe I didn't ask about? I think important thing that I'd like to highlight is just, you know, as grief. This is your relationship. You don't have to be loud about it. You don't have to be you don't have to be anything about it. You don't have and it doesn't determine how much you love that individual that you care about, like you are the keeper of their story. You are the keeper of of it all. And please don't let the pressure of anyone and these fictitious stages and the misinformation about grief as a whole make you feel like you're not doing it right, because none of us are doing it right. The learn as you go experience. You have you speak up about this and because you're passionate, you care. This is life's work, as you say. And some people consider it, quote unquote, like fear mongering. Right. So people are like, why would you talk about this? Why would you put that in the mom's head and blah, blah, blah? Hello. It's a reality. And if we learn to listen, it's literally saving lives. So the end goal is to create awareness and save lives. Because, like you say, you deserve to hear your child's name and have them with you. I think it's important to make that distinction. It kind of boggles my mind a little bit when people get, you know, like, oh, you shouldn't talk about this. It's like, well, why not? It's a huge reality and everything, and there's something we can do about it. So why would you talk about this to me? Especially when they tell us not to eat deli needs and then that your child could die from SIDS. It's like, yes, that's true. But you know, when we talk about the other things out there that you can do as well. Like we got to talk about it. It's not a lot to do. List the little bit of awareness going in our long way. Yes. I love it. Thank you, Dom, for talking about all of this. My final question to you is, what would Dom today tell Dom six years ago? Oh, that's okay. You don't have to be quiet about it all, cause I. How? I held it close for so long. And I think. Not until I found my voice again did I realize I, I, I couldn't be quiet about it all. My voice had to continue when his voice did not. Carefully stated. Thank you. I'm sorry. You know this pain. I'm grateful for your work. I'm sure many other people will benefit. I will link everything. All the organizations and websites and apps to the show notes, so be sure to check that out. Follow Dom adds Dylan Birth Mama Fighting for Light on Instagram. Is there another way that they could get in touch with you if somebody wanted to contact you directly or I'm now I'm on threads. Watch out, people. They bring you to threads. Which reminds me, you got to join too, if you have it all the time. Yesterday I was still finding like putting up like. Yes, so on broad red community on Instagram we are talking about this. So feel free to contact Dominic Rice. Thank you, my friend.

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Nina Rodriguez

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